briar treatments

[KurtHuhn]

Not directed at anyone in particular, and sure to stir the pot even further:

If you sell a pretty pipe that tastes like a grizzly bear's butt, and has a draw like a sucking through a coffee stirrer, you might never sell another pipe again.

I see nothing wrong with working on the two goals in parallel. In fact, I think it should be encouraged for those that have the time and dedication to pursue it. Perhaps that's not a properly conservative, or even a popular, opinion.

Focusing on one to the exclusion of the other is short sighted. Nurturing your artistic ability is necessary, yes, but it doesn't have to be your only goal. I don't find investigating the more technical aspects of pipe making (and there are plenty of those) to be silly, humorous, or premature at any point in a pipe makers career or education.

[ToddJohnson]

I suspect that Todd's post to Ben was misunderstood.

My take on this is that Todd was saying to Ben that he understood that his (Todd's) or anyone's kidding about a serious inquiry could be really annoying, and he was being contrite.

Rad

That's exactly what I was saying Rad. I didn't realize it might have been misunderstood--though I was (and am) admittedly confused about the reaction to my basic message--"hey, sorry, didn't mean to offend."

Todd

[ToddJohnson]

Directed at Kurt in particular, but not meant to stir any pots:

Not directed at anyone in particular, and sure to stir the pot even further:

If you sell a pretty pipe that tastes like a grizzly bear's butt, and has a draw like a sucking through a coffee stirrer, you might never sell another pipe again.

No one would disagree with this, but that's not an issue that has been raised here. The discussions I was speaking of have nothing to do with basic engineering procedures and the use of seasoned briar--two things that almost ensure you'll not be producing a pipe that "tastes like a grizzly bear's butt, and has a draw like a sucking through a coffee stirrer." The few discussions I was referencing are about procedures that 99 out of 100 producers of high-grade pipes (and their respective customer bases for that matter) consider unnecessary or even unhelpful. That doesn't mean they're of no value, probably just that they needn't serve as a starting point for anyone wishing to make pipes.

I see nothing wrong with working on the two goals in parallel. In fact, I think it should be encouraged for those that have the time and dedication to pursue it. Perhaps that's not a properly conservative, or even a popular, opinion.

If the two goals you're speaking of are "artistry" and engineering, I couldn't agree more. However I agree with Rad that a pipe which has been oil cured to perfection but has been mis-drilled and looks like a doorknob is no great accomplishment. Using seasoned briar and solid engineering principles you're more than likely going to produce a good sound pipe. If it's beautiful, all the better. My point throughout has been that all the little tweaks and treatments (some of which are probably weighted more towards marketing than smoking performance) are sort of like icing on a cake--but you need to have a cake first. I would just encourage everyone to pour their energies into those foundational things before delving into various forms of briar alchemy.

Focusing on one to the exclusion of the other is short sighted. Nurturing your artistic ability is necessary, yes, but it doesn't have to be your only goal. I don't find investigating the more technical aspects of pipe making (and there are plenty of those) to be silly, humorous, or premature at any point in a pipe makers career or education.

I agree completely, except that I would probably prejudice engineering over artistry in the beginning. However, I would like to underscore my earlier point that I don't think engineering proper has been what's at stake in this thread. I think artistry and engineering should be pursued in tamdem, but I also think that (what I've called) briar alchemy should be kept on the side of one's agenda, not at the top of it. And I do still find it silly to try and nail down a specific recipe, time sequence, and set of procedures for oil curing if you don't yet have something to oil cure. Nonetheless, I want to re-iterate that this board is and should remain a place for discussing all such topics without any fear of ridicule. I will try and contribute to the furtherance of that end.

Best,

Todd

[KurtHuhn]

I agree completely, except that I would probably prejudice engineering over artistry in the beginning. However, I would like to underscore my earlier point that I don't think engineering proper has been what's at stake in this thread. I think artistry and engineering should be pursued in tamdem, but I also think that (what I've called) briar alchemy should be kept on the side of one's agenda, not at the top of it. And I do still find it silly to try and nail down a specific recipe, time sequence, and set of procedures for oil curing if you don't yet have something to oil cure. Nonetheless, I want to re-iterate that this board is and should remain a place for discussing all such topics without any fear of ridicule. I will try and contribute to the furtherance of that end.

Interesting. It would appear that you and I are in violent agreement.

I have no real opinion of oil curing or othe types of "briar alchemy" outside a casual interest And I think that alchemy is exactly what most of it is. The basic truths are pretty self evident in that respect - sap, resins, and moisture in raw briar tastes like a grizzly bear's butt. The rest of it; boiling, oil curing, salt curing, etc are all designed to do one thing - remove the moisture. In some instances replace it with something else (like oil) .

I agree that well-seasoned briar is the only way to go. Er, make that, properly processed and well seasoned briar. Sometimes, though, murphy likes to visit in the guise of the UPS man. In those cases, and in the interest of financial responsibility, I like to experiment now and again.

[RadDavis]

Hi Kurt,

I posted:

Learn to make a pretty pipe first. One that will sell only because it looks good and is drilled properly.

If a pipe is drilled properly, it won't draw like a coffee stirrer. If it tastes like a grizzly bear's butt, no amount of curing/treatment will fix that.

Of the all the pipes that I sold last year, one tasted like a grizzly bear's butt. The customer is a 30 year pipe smoker. He said the drilling was spot on, and could find nothing wrong with the pipe. Didn't gurgle, smoked fine, it just tasted like shit, even after 20-30 bowls. I replaced the pipe, and he's very happy with the replacement. Do you think any amount of curing could have fixed that pipe? I don't. Sometimes shit happens, and it ain't the maker's fault. It's just a pipe that will never smoke well. And even then, sometimes, for someone else, it will be a great smoker. Go figure.

I do nothing at all to my pipes as far as a cure or treatment, and, except for that one problem, I have had great feedback on my pipes.

You said in an earlier post:

Of course, in the sense of briar treatment, it's not even be necessary if you have good briar.

This is my point.

If you have good briar, then concentrate on making a great looking pipe. I'm not saying to the exclusion of pursuing a better process or cure, but aesthetics, IMHO are *the* factor in selling a pipe.

How many times have you seen posted in the various BB's and newsgroups, "The pipe spoke/called to me."? It wasn't any kind of treatment that spoke/called to them. It was the aesthetics of the pipe.

All these other things, cures, etc., while they *may* make a pipe smoke a little better, will do nothing for the pipe maker unless he has captured the buyer's interest. And the buyer's interest is captured by aesthetics and nothing else.

I don't find the pursuit of the more technical aspects of pipe making to be silly or humorous at all. I'm thinking about them/trying them all the time. But they can certainly be premature.

Oil curing a turd on a stick is not going to help a new pipe maker. He needs to make it pretty first.

Rad

[Brendhain]

This may be a silly question, if it is then please forgive my ignorance, but why can't those who are interested in oil curing, reboiling, or X-raying pursue their interests without getting alot of flack?

If someone is uninterested in the subject then leave us others to it. For myself, I have a dozen pipes I made a number of years ago just lying around. I have 30 - 40 cheap pipes (unsmoked) I bought years ago. What I don't have is a place to drill and work them, yet. My wife won't let me do it inside the apartment. So, what can I do? I can work on contrast staining (she lets me have a buffer in the office) and bowl treatments.

Again, I ask the question: why can't those who are interested in oil curing, reboiling, or X-raying pursue their interests without getting alot of flack?

Maybe, some of you who react so strongly and take issue with these types of topics should ask yourselves why you think it is okay for you to be telling us what we should and shouldn't be be pursuing.

I can drill a pipe (did it for a couple of years) I can shape a pipe (well enough to sell a few but I am still not yet satisfied). What I can't do to the standard that I want is sandblast, oil cure, contrast stain and stemwork. If the wife doesn't let me drill, file or sand in the apartment I hardly believe she will let me sandblast. Stemwork meets the same doom. Therefore, oil curing and contrast staining is what is left to me.

In reference to Todd's comment about oil treatments being

sort of like icing on a cake--but you need to have a cake first.

; when one is learning how to make high grade cakes, most cooking schools will teach you how to do the icing first then you learn to make the cake. (I know this because I am the programme coordinator for a hospitality college in Sweden.) The cake is the easy part. The icing takes years and years of technique perfecting before one can decorate a cake properly.

The earlier one starts, the sooner one is finished.

I can buy a $45 dollar block of wood, do a good job of drilling it, stick a stem to it and it will smoke well. Many of us started our first pipe as a kit much like this. What I want to be able to do is create the best possible pipe that I can. I think oil curing is a part of this.

(This next comment is certainly not directed specifically towards Todd but to everyone in general who tells others what we "should" be doing and "shouldn't" be doing.) Who are you that you think that its okay to tell others what to do? Is your name Butera, Roash, Nordh, Talbert or Julie? If its not then maybe you don't have the authority to tell others what they should or shouldn't be doing. Maybe, you should do what we are doing; working to make the best pipes that we can make, learning all that we can about all of the different aspects of pipe making, and be curious to learn about anything that might improve the pipes you are making. Pipes, and art in general, are not linear. Just as there is more than one way to skin a cat there is more than one way to make an excellent pipe. Leave others to pursue that goal the way they see fit.

[bscofield]

OK, I'm out of these "he said, she said" discussions right after this unless I'm addressed... but here goes.

Maybe, some of you who react so strongly and take issue with these types of topics should ask yourselves why you think it is okay for you to be telling us what we should and shouldn't be be pursuing.

Brendhain, I am being totaly honest here, I cannot for the life of me understand how your taking his advice as him "telling you" what you should or not do. We don't have Nordh, Eltang, Former and likes on this website. But we have established guys like Todd and random who make a living doing this. They offers advice (at least that's how I take it) and I value it (no matter how contrary they may be, i.e. random's and Todd's advice ). I really just don't see how you come to that conclusion that what they gave as advice is somehow them throwing their weight around.

[bscofield]

OK, I'm out of these "he said, she said" discussions right after this unless I'm addressed... but here goes.

Maybe, some of you who react so strongly and take issue with these types of topics should ask yourselves why you think it is okay for you to be telling us what we should and shouldn't be be pursuing.

Brendhain, I am being totaly honest here, I cannot for the life of me understand how your taking his advice as him "telling you" what you should or not do. We don't have Nordh, Eltang, Former and likes on this website. But we have established guys like Todd and random who make a living doing this. They offers advice (at least that's how I take it) and I value it (no matter how contrary they may be, i.e. random's and Todd's advice ). I really just don't see how you come to that conclusion that what they gave as advice is somehow them throwing their weight around.

[KurtHuhn]

Of the all the pipes that I sold last year, one tasted like a grizzly bear's butt. The customer is a 30 year pipe smoker. He said the drilling was spot on, and could find nothing wrong with the pipe. Didn't gurgle, smoked fine, it just tasted like shit, even after 20-30 bowls. I replaced the pipe, and he's very happy with the replacement. Do you think any amount of curing could have fixed that pipe?

Based on my experiences - maybe. Did it taste bad because the wood was bad, wet, imporperly processed, or an odd chemical reaction between the tobacco, the briar, and the customer's tongue?

It's possible that the briar could have been treated and been a good smoker - but in this case it's moot since the pipe was already smoked.

I do nothing at all to my pipes as far as a cure or treatment, and, except for that one problem, I have had great feedback on my pipes.

You said in an earlier post:

Of course, in the sense of briar treatment, it's not even be necessary if you have good briar.

This is my point.

I agree, I really do. However, with close to 100 blocks of obviously poor briar, I would like to do something to fix it. That's the only reason I chimed in early on (like the first page) in this thread. If I can fix this briar, I can save myself a few hundred dollars.

I don't find the pursuit of the more technical aspects of pipe making to be silly or humorous at all. I'm thinking about them/trying them all the time. But they can certainly be premature.

And this was really the only point in my later post. I find it quite admirable that folks want to learn allthey possibly can about making pipes. Wether it's premature for new makers to learn "briar alchemy" is a matter of opinion. Myself, I have no opinion on the subject - though I read the posts with great interest.

I'll keep up my tomfoolery on this narsty briar and maybe I'll hit on something - then again, maybe I won't. None of that experimentation is wasted. In the meantime, however, I'll continue to make pipes out of briar that I know has been processed correctly, cured appropriately, is all-around high quality wood, and turns new customers in to three-peaters.

[Brendhain]

I think you kind of missed my whole point.

It is some people's intolerance to certain subjects to which I was refering. I didn't mean that as an implication that anyone was comparing themselves to those people. I meant that no one here has figured out how to make "the perfect pipe". So, noone here should discount what other people are doing in pursuit of "their" perfect pipe.

I am sorry if I was unclear with how I wrote that.

For myself, I am pursuing the traditional English line as begun by Dunhill and Sasieni (who used to oil cure) and is now maintained by the likes of Ashton and Ferndown (who both continue to oil cure). hence, my interest in oil curing. Todd is a great example of someone who pursues the artistic side of the spectrum, as evident by some of his extraordinary work with bamboo and his "The Ukelele" and the like.

[bscofield]

I think you kind of missed my whole point.

It is some people's intolerance to certain subjects to which I was refering. I didn't mean that as an implication that anyone was comparing themselves to those people. I meant that no one here has figured out how to make "the perfect pipe". So, noone here should discount what other people are doing in pursuit of "their" perfect pipe.

I am sorry if I was unclear with how I wrote that.

For myself, I am pursuing the traditional English line as begun by Dunhill and Sasieni (who used to oil cure) and is now maintained by the likes of Ashton and Ferndown (who both continue to oil cure). hence, my interest in oil curing. Todd is a great example of someone who pursues the artistic side of the spectrum, as evident by some of his extraordinary work with bamboo and his "The Ukelele" and the like.

OK... I get it. Your post did sound a little harsh, but I understand what your saying. Regardless of what others are saying, I say simply this: Learn to make the best pipe you can! And incidently, regarding the curing. If you run into a recipe that you like and would want some other's to try it and give you a result back let me know. I'd be glad to try (and that way i'd be privy to whatever secret recipe you may develop, and of course I'd keep it confidential).

[Brendhain]

Ben..... that is a deal but it will, unfortunately, take a while for that to day comes .

[ScoJo]

Hmm. As a beginner I have been struggling with many things. I think the answer to one of my struggles has come from this thread. Namely, what should I call my pipes?

I think I'm going with "Grizzly Bear Butt Briars". Forget GBD - go for GBBB!

[TreverT]

Of the all the pipes that I sold last year, one tasted like a grizzly bear's butt. The customer is a 30 year pipe smoker. He said the drilling was spot on, and could find nothing wrong with the pipe. Didn't gurgle, smoked fine, it just tasted like shit, even after 20-30 bowls. I replaced the pipe, and he's very happy with the replacement. Do you think any amount of curing could have fixed that pipe?

B

And then there is the other answer, which I've encountered before in my time selling pipes - one guy will buy a pipe and not like the way it smokes at all. The pipe gets returned and resold to another guy who thinks it's one of the best smoking pipes he has ever had. You never can tell...

FWIW, one simple test I've found is to shape your stummel and immerse it overnight in a jar of pure Everclear. If next morning, the liquid is still clear or only slightly tinted, it's good briar. If the liquid is red or, especially, wine red, it was going to be a lousy smoke.. but will be markedly better now, once you get it out & slow-dry it and boil it to remove leftover alcohol flavor. However, this is a lot of pointless labor compared to the cost of a better-quality briar block instead.

[TreverT]

Who are you that you think that its okay to tell others what to do? Is your name Butera, Roash, Nordh, Talbert or Julie? .

Err, you're putting me in some pretty heavily elevated company there, LOL! FWIW, though, I don't think anybody should, or is trying to, tell anyone else what they should be doing. My own attitude is basically just to occasionally try to save people from wasting time and/or money on things I know won't work, provide help when I have the time, and otherwise just stay out of the way. I see plenty of topics recur that I think are sometimes hilariously inane, but the bottom line is that it's no skin off my back if someone wants to rent a $5K/day NASA wind tunnel machine to test for the optimum curvature of airhole tapering in a stem... if they have the time and money to waste, and the time to post about it, it will probably be entertaining reading. The only caution I can offer is to try not to get too defensive if somebody tells you something isn't likely to work - the first reaction can sometimes be, "Why are you trying to keep me down?" when really the naysayer most likely is just trying to save you some time and grief that he's already wasted unhappily himself.

[KurtHuhn]

I agree, I really do. However, with close to 100 blocks of obviously poor briar, I would like to do something to fix it. That's the only reason I chimed in early on (like the first page) in this thread. If I can fix this briar, I can save myself a few hundred dollars.

Have any friends who are cops or otherwise pistol shooters? Awesome briar grips should be a piece of cake after making pipes. Just a thought.

Want to hear somthing funny? A buddy down in Texas recently told me the same thing - except make scales for knife handles. I'm working on a coupld of knives right now that will get briar handles. Should look pretty darn nice.

[magruder]

TO ALL RESPONDENTS:
I wish to put my finger back in this dike!
( Please forgo innuendo on the above)



Thanx to all for info. Let's allow all to be heard and humorous -life is too hard to spend this much time on what (IMHO) should be a given.

Respectfully and playfully,

M.

FINI