drying briar??

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:23 pm

Tyler wrote:Being convinced of my own data, like the rest of us, I would like to point out one issue. If we do run across incredible wood that is 40+ years old, how can we know that it is because it is 40+ years old?

Tyler

Okay, a serious attempt to answer this question: The obvious answer is, of course, that we can't know. As I admitted, there are myriad other factors that may account for the results I've spoken of. The reasons that have persuaded me that age matters however are as follows: First, the bowls I currently have are from disparate geographical locals spanning an approximate thirty year period, exhibit wildly different grain patterns (when there is grain), and are in approximately 30 different shapes. The one "control," if you will, is that they are all exceptionally old. This seems to be the only thing they have in common, yet all exhibit the same exceptional smoking properties. FWIW, I'm pretty positive that some of it is Algerian and some of it is Greek wood, so that would even remove the possibility of a similar origin from the equation. Anyway, no one else need be convinced and it's sort of a moot point anyway, unless you're Bo Nordh, right? An interesting topic though, nonetheless.

Todd

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:12 am

I guess the question is how are we defining "well aged" and "well boiled". If well aged means 30 to 40 years then there is little that we can do to determine which is more important as bscofield illustrated earlier. We lack the controls.

That leads to the other half of the question, what is "well boiled". Does this mean a 12 hour boil, a 24 hour boil, or longer? The boil is used to get the sap and the resin out of the wood. Regular aging will not get these substances out. Perhaps, the aging allows the small amounts of sap and resin, which remain in the wood after boiling, to break down further and open up the grain for moisture from smoking. Arguably, they won't break down much either. Pine sap stays wet for many years and remains in the wood for decades but if the block is boiled properly then there is very little sap left in the wood and it is likely to have been deluted by the boiling process. Thus, it would break down more easily over time. Thus, the longer it is aged the better tasting (possibly, more neutral flavor since you aren't burning/melting/heating the resins anymore) and dryer the smoke.

I wouldn't want to smoke an unboiled block, no matter how old it was, but I would be willing to smoke a well boiled young(define?? 2 years?) block.

I am curious as to Kurts famous "Grizzly's Butt Briar". Is this caused by under boiling or from poor drying at the mill? If they aren't dried "properly" then they bend and get mildew/mold growth. These growths could be causing the bad taste (unless you like the taste of a Grizzly's butt). If the chemicals produced by a growth has penitrated the wood then it is likely to remain in the wood despite time. So, how could this ill tasting chemical sucretion from a growths be nutrealized? Acid or base? Vinegar or ..... amonia?

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:54 am

KILLING!!!!!! How dare you!!!!!

Kidding.....you are right, in so far as they have to get the burl to die. They don't always bury them in the ground, although some do bury them. Others let them sit in dark cellars. The idea is to starve the burl of light so that it eventually will die.

One can speculate that this long starvation process would cause the burl to use up some of the stored sugars/starches in the burl, so that there is less to be boiled out.

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:14 pm

Okay, I think the moderator needs to move this thread to the "Briar Alchemy" section of the board now.

Todd

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:21 pm

But Todd

...... we didn't even use the term "oil curing"!!!! and you know that we were so tempted to use it!!!

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:04 pm

But Todd ...... we didn't even use the term "oil curing"!!!! and you know that we were so tempted to use it!!!

No, but you got *really* close to the Dead Root thing.

Rad

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:49 pm

DEAD ROOT!!!!

THat is it!! I'm soooo outa here that its not even funny! Dead root my frazzle scmack 'em grizzly bear tastin' butt!

HMMPH!

Post by **Tyler** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:00 pm

Who? What?

Moderator?!

I was sitting out by the mail box waiting for my 60+ years old test samples.

Tyler (who came in for coffe and is heading back out to the mailbox.)

bscofield · Post by **bscofield** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:03 pm

Tyler wrote:Tyler (who came in for coffe and is heading back out to the mailbox.)

hahahaha... At least your not holding your breath too...

Post by **Tyler** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:04 pm

Another couple of questions:

Will a pipe age that has remained unsmoked for 60+ years?

What about one that has been smoked and is 60+ years old?

(I am being serious this time.)

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:44 pm

Yes, the pipe will be 60 years older.

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:24 pm

Tyler wrote:Who? What?

Moderator?!

I was sitting out by the mail box waiting for my 60+ years old test samples.

Tyler (who came in for coffe and is heading back out to the mailbox.)

My wife is presently in labor. If it's especially protracted I may be able to get them off to you tomorrow.

Otherwise, early next week. BTW, at least you have weather conducive of waiting by the mailbox in January. It is currently 4 here.

Todd

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:24 pm

Will a pipe age that has remained unsmoked for 60+ years?

I asked Todd that a couple of days ago. Never got an answer.

Pig is better than brisket.

Rad

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:14 pm

RadDavis wrote:
Will a pipe age that has remained unsmoked for 60+ years?
I asked Todd that a couple of days ago. Never got an answer.

Pig is better than brisket.

Rad

Hey Rad,

I'm not sure where you asked that question, but sorry for the non response. I think an unsmoked pipe certainly will age. All of the stummells I have are essentially 30-60 year old unsmoked pipes and their smoking properties are what has convinced me that there are advantages to *very* old briar. Again, the difference might be negligable to a certain extent, but to my palate there do seem to be uniquely positive characteristics that come with this briar.

Best,

Todd

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:00 am

I'm not sure where you asked that question, but sorry for the non response.

It was back on page one of this thread.

I didn't take your comment to mean that aged briar was the only way to go.

Todd, what do you think happens, via aging, to the wood once it's been boiled and is dry. I mean, once it's dry, it can't get any drier, and its moisture content will actually fluctuate somewhat with changes in humidity.

Is it these fluctuations that contribute to making the wood better? Any theories?

And do you think that 50 - 60 year old unsmoked pipes go through the same improvements?

Thanks, Todd!

I know that you can cut and drill "damp" briar and set it aside, and it will dry in a matter of weeks rather than months.

Do you think a stummel would "age" faster than a block? Or is that one of those alchemy things?

Rad

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:20 am

Briar alchemy or Science….You make the choice!!!!

Did a little research on the aging process of wood, i.e. what happens to wood as it gets older, not how to determine the age of wood (tried to preempt the smart remarks but I am sure I will get some anyway). There are complex chemical compounds in wood that remain in the wood after it has died (beyond just the sap and resins). Most come out with boiling but all of these compounds cannot all be boiled out unless the blocks were to be boiled for weeks or months. These chemicals are acidic, hence the “sour” taste in improperly boiled blocks.

The process of drying breaks down these compounds. Plus, as time goes by, these compounds deteriorate naturally into more basic compounds with different characteristics then the original complex chemicals (like carbon 14 breaks down with time). The more time that goes by, the more of these compounds would be broken down. Hence, the “sour” taste is diminished as the wood gets older. Anyone who knows much about the aging processes of wine and/or the lagering process in beer will have a good idea as to what is going on. The heating and cooling, while smoking, also breaks these compounds down but in a different way to aging.

Now, I realize that I have just affirmed what half of you have experienced and offended half of your sensibilities. For those of you whom I have offended please realize that they didn’t believe chemistry really mattered in wine (because wine making is an art!!) until UC Davis came out with its studies and now nearly the entire wine making world has become scientist. At the same time, as Todd pointed out earlier, there is only a subtle difference between a well boiled reasonably aged block and a 40 year-old well boiled block…but there is a difference. This difference, I believe, is that last bit of complex compounds have been allowed to break down in the wood through the aging process.

achduliebe · Post by **achduliebe** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:32 am

Todd,

Hope things go well for you and your wife. Let us know when your new addition arrives.

jeff · Post by **jeff** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:29 am

ToddJohnson wrote:
My wife is presently in labor.

Todd

Todd,

I would like to speak on behalf of myself and the rest of us here at the forums. We admire your uncompromised devotion to the pipemaking community. Even with your wife in labor with your first child you have the courage to stand for what is right, step towards that personal computer, and post your aid. My hat is off to you sir.

Jeff

P.S. What he hell are you doing posting with your wife in labor?!

P.P.S. I hope all goes well.