More fuel for the Delrin vs. integral tenon debate

[LatakiaLover]

Over the past year or so, a new, fourth topic has joined bowl coating, fills, and airway enlargement on the PipeWorld's List of Subjects Guaranteed to Get People Riled Up.

It is whether or not a Delrin tenon is a useful channel marker regarding the REST of the pipe.

There's no question that the material itself makes an excellent tenon for a briar pipe, and when properly installed is completely reliable. And, while proper installation is an exacting procedure---there's no room to "do it your own way," and precious little for error---it's hardly rocket science. Anyone can learn to do it.

The problem is... and I finally concluded this over the past few months, after keeping track of what moved through my shop: there IS a noticeable correlation between a pipe having a Delrin tenon and that same pipe having beginner-ish engineering errors that (sometimes) create ripple-effect problems.

In other words, the group of collectors who say integral tenons are an indicator of quality, are, in the most general and sweeping way, correct.

Again, so I'm not misquoted or misunderstood, there's no question that Delrin itself makes an excellent tenon for a briar pipe, and when properly installed is completely reliable. That's not the issue.

The issue seems to be that its ease of use during construction has removed the biggest "technical-competence-based" barrier to entry of the pipemaking craft, and allowed (some) people who wouldn't have been able to make and market a pipe before, to do so.

I can't think of another way to explain the causation, anyway. The correlation is there.

I'd love to know what you guys think.

[d.huber]

I think you hit it on the head.

[the rev]

I think Todd Johnson is gonna hit you on the head

rev

[LatakiaLover]

I think Todd Johnson is gonna hit you on the head

It won't be the first time he's wanted to.

The funny part is as much as we go after each other on the interwebs, we get along great face-to-face. He's really bright, and an outrageously funny guy in social situations.

I won't sit with my back to any doors in Chicago, though. He's half my age and outweighs me by fifty pounds.

[The Smoking Yeti]

I think you hit it on the head.

Poor head...

[kkendall]

Those that turn their noses up at a pipe, just because of a delrin tenon, are pipe snobs. Biots.
They can go pound sand.

[LatakiaLover]

Those that turn their noses up at a pipe, just because of a delrin tenon, are pipe snobs. Bigots.
They can go pound sand.

Ah. A useful response.

The tribal aspects of human nature are well understood.

How individuals process information that triggers tribal behavior is far more interesting (and what I was after).

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch like pound sand!

[LatakiaLover]

Sasquatch like pound sand!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmqaNbfJ ... F1&index=8

[oklahoma red]

I agree that acetal (Delrin) is a superb material for tenons and it is easy to use. Too easy I think. Joint failure has given it a bad name in some circles. Without proper preparation the joint WILL fail at some point. Failure is possible even with proper prep. One never knows what kind of handling a pipe will receive once it leaves the maker's hands. Acetal has low surface energy which basically means it's a bitch to glue properly. There are some high end adhesives that usually require surface modification via primers that will do the job but they are not very practical or economical for our purposes. Gas plasma treatment works well also but who the heck has that equipment? Where room and overall design are in the favorable column, the use of a threaded Delrin tenon is the way to go in my book and it is definitely not that hard to do. I've done a few with an integral tenon on the stem and a Delrin sleeve in the shank. That's the best of both worlds (if the sleeve is properly installed).
This subject has had some real workouts for sure in the past. Opinions are like assholes: everyone has one.
Chas.

[LatakiaLover]

I agree that acetal (Delrin) is a superb material for tenons and it is easy to use. Too easy I think. Joint failure has given it a bad name in some circles. Without proper preparation the joint WILL fail at some point. Failure is possible even with proper prep. One never knows what kind of handling a pipe will receive once it leaves the maker's hands. Acetal has low surface energy which basically means it's a bitch to glue properly. There are some high end adhesives that usually require surface modification via primers that will do the job but they are not very practical or economical for our purposes. Gas plasma treatment works well also but who the heck has that equipment?

Simply gluing the stuff definitely isn't an option for home shops, pipemakers-on-a-budget, etc. Specialty adhesives exist that will do the job (provided you have the $ and use it exactly as instructed), but there's no need to bother when a "third piece of a 3-D puzzle" mechanical lock is easy to achieve by scoring both surfaces deeply enough in a crosshatch pattern to achieve it.

Which leads to:

Where room and overall design are in the favorable column, the use of a threaded Delrin tenon is the way to go in my book and it is definitely not that hard to do.
Chas.

You still have to cut some "cross channels" across the threads so it can't unscrew, but some of the work is already done with those.

Their weakness is most of the ready-made designs shouldn't be used together with airway enlargement. So called "open draw" pipes. Cutting too deeply into the base of the threaded portion weakens the tenon in terms of snapping off, as opposed to joint failure.

In any event, I thought I'd bring all this up because I was interested in what people thought of the "repairman's perspective", which is that Delin use does seem to square with the collecting world's emerging opinion (in some circles) that it's a tell-tale indicator of what you can expect to find elsewhere with the pipe, and not in a good way.

A similar situation exists with acrylic stems. Over the 50 years or so they've been around, they've become associated with mid-grade, as opposed to premium-grade, pipes. Not because acrylic is intrinsically inferior to vulcanite---it isn't---but because many companies that made pipes designed to hit price points settled on acrylic for some reason, and hitting those price points meant leaving their stems thick and clunky through the bite zone and around the button. (Handwork is expensive) The net result is that today, with a few notable exceptions (Butera is the highest profile one), acrylic-stemmed pipes are viewed by the collecting world as being less desirable, and therefore less valuable. It isn't fair, it isn't even RIGHT. But it's how things are.

As for upsetting the PF membership, sorry about that. I have no skin in the game of any kind. I make, and work on, everything. Whatever a customer wants, he gets.

[scotties22]

I wouldn't worry too much about upsetting the apple cart, George. If we all agreed this would be a damned boring place to hang out.

I have used Delrin and probably will again. I have decided that I needed to focus on learning to cut a good looking and fitting tenon with the equipment I have at my disposal......so far so good and each one gets easier. Since my pipe smoking experiences have been extremely limited I have no opinion, really, as to a integral versus Delrin tenon and quality from a smoker's/collector's prospective

[oklahoma red]

I'll touch again on "where room allows". I don't use the ready-made threaded tenons, I thread the rod stock with a die and hand tap the stem. I do it in such a manner that the threads are buried well below the face of the stem so as to not be visible and untouched material is at the juncture of the tenon and stem. Airway is .156. I've found a CA glue that works pretty well with Delrin (tho I would not trust it on a non-thread application) and I use that on the threads as a locker. To do all of this the stem obviously needs to be a style where one is not going to cut into the ass-end of the Delrin as in a saddle bit.
The following blather is based upon my many years in the injection molding business.
Beyond the fact that acrylic stems can be had in endless colors and swirls etc, the main attraction for the factories is cost. The price of the molds can be amortized over the thousands of stems produced and the raw stems wind up costing just a few cents. The labor to finish the stem is drastically reduced. The biggest complaint on acrylic is usually mouth feel. A lot of people don't like the sound of the clicking against the teeth and they are quite hard. The quality of molded acrylic stems can vary with the usual factors involved with injection molding (temperature, pressure, amount of re-grind being fed back into the melt stream, back pressure after the material is injected, etc). Another factor is how the mold is gated (where and how the molten material enters the mold cavity). Injection molding induces stress into the finished part. How the part is gated makes a huge impact on these stresses. Big gates reduce stress but create extra work in eliminating the gate "mark". Small gates reduce the mark but create more turbulence and thus more stress. If these stresses are bad enough the part can crack along these stress lines at some point in its life. Any of this can contribute to giving acrylic a bad name. On the plus side: very easy to get a high polish, no oxidation and endless colors if that is your bag. Acrylic seems to be very big with the European makers
Obviously hand cut acrylic stems have none of these problems other than the clickety-clack and a more limited color palette.
Molded vulcanite stems are made by compression molding which is an entirely different process.
Chas.

[pipedreamer]

You picked ONE aspect of pipe making. If everybody wants to be a pipe maker GREAT! I make a good smoking pipe. How they look is a part of me for that period. If all this was just technical, then we would build a machine to make perfect pipes. Yes, I know they call it a factory. We can see what they did. I Iike looking at other pipe makers work, IT's part of them. No cookie cutter crap. When everybody starts making pipes , let me know. I'll build one that will suck a bowling ball out of a closet.

[archaggelosmichail]

George I'll agree with you.

I've wrote it again that to me, a pipe is given more points for handmade stem of ebonite and solid tenon.

Michail

[wdteipen]

I'm not a big fan of Delrin mostly because I never could figure out how to make one that didn't fail so I gave up. The majority of my tenons are integral. I prefer it. Whether it's better or not is certainly debatable.

And for George's entertainment: Integral better than Delrin. /Grunt

[LatakiaLover]

You picked ONE aspect of pipe making.

I didn't "pick" anything. I'm not criticizing any group, any individual, any material, or any process or procedure. I was just reporting. Because I work on what you guys make, I hear and see things from a different perspective, and thought you might find it of professional interest. Nothing more. (That guess was based on whether I'd be interested if I was a carver, and the answer was "yes")

I mean, I like pipes. I like pipemakers. Hell, I even know a couple of 'em. Other than always wantin' to drink all yer beer, and smoke all yer tobacco, they're a righteous bunch.

[Ocelot55]

I like delrin. Feels great, allows for very smooth removal of the stem. On some of my integral tenons I'm always worried about cracking the shank by removing the stem. If you happen to drop the pipe, delrin won't snap off like an integral tenon will either. Its very easy to use and you never have to worry about fit. Ultimately it doesn't matter what the tenon is made out of, rather than how well it's made.

[oklahoma red]

Let's look at it from this perspective which I think was/is George’s original intent and we'll ignore my technical bull 'nure.
On one hand I see collectors/buyers that have been at it for a long time and the attitude is "if it's not broken why are you trying to fix it?" Integral tenons have served us well for decades and decades and we don't want any stinking "homopolymers" in our pipes. Wood, rubber and the occasional dollop of silver and that's it! If it's not a billiard or a bent we don't want anything to do with it and for damn sure we don't want to see any of that gawd awful bamboo.
On the other side of the coin you have a younger, hipper crowd that is always looking for a better way or the ultimate mouse trap. New materials, designs and technology are embraced. If it is not a Florov or Revyagin don’t even bother talking to us.
Now, how either of these points of view equate to sales I have not a clue. Who is buying what I do not know. Are the old farts outspending the young Turks?
Chas.

[e Markle]

The problem is... and I finally concluded this over the past few months, after keeping track of what moved through my shop: there IS a noticeable correlation between a pipe having a Delrin tenon and that same pipe having beginner-ish engineering errors that (sometimes) create ripple-effect problems.

Of course there is, but that's false correlation. Any idiot can use delrin (as your example proves), but this does not mean that only idiots use it.

In other words, the group of collectors who say integral tenons are an indicator of quality, are, in the most general and sweeping way, correct.

True, but trivial. For the level of pipes "we" are trying to make (I'm making some assumptions about people's goals on this site) engineering and construction are taken for granted. I would guess you see a whole bunch of pipes from people with much lower standards... which is EXACTLY why you get many of them. That aside, I would liken this to two identical watches: one made of gold the other of stainless steel (cut me some slack on the chemical properties, alchemy nerds). They are of the exact same quality, but some may prefer the item which is intrinsically more valuable. To some this also signifies higher quality, but I think that's a false dichotomy. I would much rather own a Toyota Camry than a Jaguar What-Have-You because the toyota is better built, even without the birdseye maple. I don't have that same preference with tenons, but I think it illustrates the point.

Also, I can provide you with a list of top-tier names who use delrin alongside a list of some of the worst makers in the history of man who turn their own tenons. Again, in a trivial way, I do agree with you though. Just as long as someone's skill isn't being impugned because of their choice of tenon material.