Details and Pricing

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Tyler
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Details and Pricing

Post by Tyler »

We lost a long thread with the crash on the ever interesting subject of pricing, and the issue came to mind in another thread. Rather than hijack that thread, and to move this part of the discussion to the public forum out of the private forum, I submit the below.
I gave up on a lot of this shit a long time ago because I find it far more annoying than satisfying, and stretching myself on every pipe and then realizing a month later that it needed X,Y, and Z to be actually really good started to wear on me so I backed off and started having more fun again. This put me in a place where most of the time I'm making fairly simple pipes, and just trying to continuously do a good or excellent job on the basics. I actually think that's hard enough!

Lots of smokers and seemingly lots of makers don't give a shit about certain small perfections, and only you can decide what your tolerance level is.
This is an important realization to make. Making super high-grades is not for everyone, and that's perfect because buying them isn't for everyone either. No big deal.

This leads naturally to an important issue: price. Details are expensive, and law of diminishing returns kicks in on them for lots of people. For some, the details matter a lot and they must pursue them, for many they are an annoyance and a waste of time. (This is true for both makers and buyers.) In my experience, the details also require a certain body of experience in order for one to develop a more thorough awareness of what the details even are. When helping newer makers, I call this phenomenon as "zooming in." When you first start out, you see the big-picture shape of the pipe. Your first pipe is relatively pipe-like in shape, and it's a huge success. As you develop, you are more aware of smaller details: this transition, that line on the bottom of the bowl, this angle. You've "zoomed in" on smaller pieces of the pipe with the goal of making a better total package. Now when you look back at your first pipe what do you see? A bunch of missed details you didn't see when you were making the pipe, right? You are now aware of more details, and you can "zoom in" and see them. (And you're probably appalled.)

Ok, so price.

Details are a huge part of price. Why? They take a long time and a lot of care.

So now let me connect some dots. When you are a relatively new maker, you are picking up new details with each pipe. You are growing. Each pipe is better than the last. However, you don't yet have a body of experience sufficient to see all the details that Rad or Jeff Gracik see. (Not even close.) The trouble is its natural not to realize this. You don't even know these details are there to be aware of. And so, this is where new makers that ask high prices offend certain people.

When you ask the same price Rad gets, and you don't have the level of detail awareness and mastery that Rad does, it communicates that you feel you deserve to be paid more for your work than Rad does. How? Rad's work is better than yours, but you want the same price. It stands to reason that if your work got better (and caught up to Rad's) you'd ask more money. See why the "old guard" gets all huffy about new makers' prices sometimes? New guys regularly come in and effectively declare themselves better than established makers, and the "old guard" both collects those established guys and is friends with them. You're insulting both their collection and their friends.

Brief aside: the details take all the time. I'd venture that a full-time high-grade pipe maker spends maybe 25% of his time on the things that new makers spend 75% of their time on: shaping the stummel and stem, and fitting a stem. The full-timer spends most of his time on small details. Factor this in and in my previous example you are asking WAY more than Rad is for your pipe.

Not everyone is offended though. Why? Myriad reasons, of course, but at least one I believe to be true is this: many collectors can't see the details either! There are plenty of buyers out there that cannot see the different between a $150 pipe, a $500 pipe, and a $2500 pipe. And so, when a pipe with a low level of detail is priced at $400, some still buy it and are delighted. Another person might see the same $400 pipe and tell the maker he's an arrogant punk asking that. Granted, it could be that the second fellow is just a jerk and think anything more than $70 for a pipe is arrogant, but I can promise you there are those that express such offense because they see that their $400 on Rad's table buys a LOT more attention to detail. They see it, and the new maker doesn't. And it's really easy for the collector that can see the detail to feel like you are insulting his collection and friends. Worse yet, they may feel that the newer makers are taking advantage of the ignorant and damaging the hobby.

I'm getting tired and I've rambled on long enough. There is more to say, but I will stop here. I wrote more than I intended.

As a parting thought, how you think about prices as a pipe maker and a business man is different than how a collector thinks about it. My comments above are intended to communicate why tension and conflict can arise over price, particularly from the collectors perspective. I am not suggesting that everyone use the above and only the above thinking to price pipes. I'm just attempting to explain to the newer makers the (often) baffling experience of a cold reception or rude remarks about his work and prices.
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by LatakiaLover »

I think you are spot on with all that, Tyler.

Something I'd like to add is that the attention to detail thing---the "aspiring to perfection" thing---isn't a choice in the sense that simply deciding to do it will get you very far in that direction. It must be something that's felt from within as a need... it's something that controls you, not the other way around.

Meaning, new carvers shouldn't worry about it. Trying to force it won't work. The need will either manifest itself over time or it won't. People are wired differently

The rest will then take care of itself. Those pipemakers who are driven to shoot for perfection will become known to those collectors who value perfection, and the ones for whom it seems pointless will attract buyers who also think it's pointless.
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by wdteipen »

So.....what you're saying is that Rad's prices are too low? :lol:
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by scotties22 »

I have been giving this quite a bit of thought lately and have had quite a few conversations with different people regarding skill level and price. I am at the threshold. I am close to nailing down a few more of those details. But, until I do it would be foolish to think that I can ask more for my pipes. I am comfortable selling my pipes for what they are at this point. I think the hardest thing is being REAL about the quality of my pipes and giving my customers a good value.
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by KurtHuhn »

Over the years, I've seen some new carvers tie the amount of time spent on a given pipe to the value of the pipe. I think this is a mistake, as Tyler said above. You have to decouple time from value - that doesn't work when you're talking about collectible objects.

Now, that is not to say that time isn't important, because it is. However, it's important in the sense that you have to become extremely efficient at what you're doing. I think Tyler also alluded to this above.

For YOU, time is valuable, and the less time you spend on a given pipe, the more time you can spend on the next pipe. Most collectors and customers, however, couldn't care less. For them it's the final product that matters.
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by Ocelot55 »

I've thought about this a lot as well and I can say that I agree with Tyler 100%. I feel that my pipes have been received well in the retail world because the price was good. Many people have told me my prices are too low, but no on has told me they're too high. Even now, when I consider what I sold 6 months ago and for what price I feel kind of lousy because I've improved so much since then. "They paid me $200 for that!" At this stage in my career I think it's more important to get my pipes in the hands of people who will smoke them and talk about them than make a ton of money.

As far as venturing into the high grade world, Ernie and I had an interesting chat about that this week. There are some makers like Mark Tinsky, who have completely eschewed the high grade world. They are not concerned about perfection, only about making decent pipes. The market needs these people and, as Mark has proven, they can be very successful. The trick is finding where you fit in.

I personally don't see myself going into the ultra high grade world. As Tyler said, there are a lot of diminishing returns. I want to sell quality made, well shaped, great smoking pipes. Do I need to give the airway a high polish, sand the interior of the bowl to 1000 grit, or use a fossilized walrus penis shank cap to do that? Nope! At the same time, I'd like to try that on certain pipes. I can see myself shooting for perfection from time to time, concentrating on the little details and producing as perfect a pipe as I can, but not every time with every pipe.

I feel there is a huge gap between factory made pipes and artisan high grades. I don't think there should be. It's a pity pipe smokers have to shell out $300 bucks before you start seeing something as simple as a slotted stem and a chamfered tenon.
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by WCannoy »

KurtHuhn wrote:Over the years, I've seen some new carvers tie the amount of time spent on a given pipe to the value of the pipe. I think this is a mistake, as Tyler said above. You have to decouple time from value - that doesn't work when you're talking about collectible objects.

Now, that is not to say that time isn't important, because it is. However, it's important in the sense that you have to become extremely efficient at what you're doing. I think Tyler also alluded to this above.

For YOU, time is valuable, and the less time you spend on a given pipe, the more time you can spend on the next pipe. Most collectors and customers, however, couldn't care less. For them it's the final product that matters.
Just in case anyone else was confused by this post, as was I before I read it a couple of more times... Here's putting it a little more plainly:
Don't expect to have a pipe worth $500 just because you spent a week on it. Don't expect to have a pipe worth $5,000 just because you spent a month or two making it.

Taking the amount of time spent out of the equation, how much is your pipe worth based solely on the quality of the work? $100? $350? $50?
Now take that number and decide how much time you can afford to spend making this pipe, and strive for that efficiency.

Of course, if pipemaking is just a hobby for you, then you do not need to make this determination. If you rely on pipemaking to pay the bills, then this is something you need to think about!
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by WCannoy »

Tyler wrote: See why the "old guard" gets all huffy about new makers' prices sometimes?

Guilty as charged...
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by Sasquatch »

I sent a hobby-level pipe repair guy a stem blank a month ago (the one-eyed man is king). He's bent out of shape with thanks because to him, this thing, a slotted and roughly shaped proto-stem is beyond his current ability (perceived) and looking at it, he thinks it must have taken me a day to make. It took about 20 minutes. Now, the first one I did, hell yeah, half a day, and I'm thinking "This can't be done quickly." Bullshit. It can. And until you realize that a master level carver (chef/mechanic/roofer/painter...) is not just better, with more tricks, but also much much faster at the basics than the regular joe (I know a painter who can prime a house, a HOUSE, not a room, in 2 hours). And it's not that the guy who is fast is LESS of an artist. Yeah we struggle along and we want to convert our struggle into a pipe and when we've spent two days on the thing we hope it's worth something to someone. Briar, Sweat, and Tears - necessary but not sufficient. Briar, Sweat, Tears, and make a pipe that looks half decent and smokes good. THEN you got something. THEN make it really really fast and be rich, or get good at the million little details (practice) Tyler is talking about and make 900 bucks a pipe. There's no single right way to be a pipe maker.
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by wisemanpipes »

im beginning to see several avenues for pipe makers to choose. and like George said, I truly believe people are wired to seek perfection. I occasionally ruin my pipes because something isn't quite right and I just sand to far. its hard to know when enough detail is good enough to stop at. That is what sets peoples prices apart. How far someone is willing to go with their details.


Id also like to point out that same conversation everyone had on pipe marque (both artisan and factory).

Some people can simply charge more for their pipes because they are established. I understand and sincerely appreciate that.
If I make a billiard and Rad makes a billiard, id get likely 1/4 of what Rad gets, but im okay with that and feel reputation is built and earned not chosen like some people are insinuating.

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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by wmolaw »

Hmmm, don't know if I should dip my toe into this area since I don't know shit, but what the hell.

I can't come at this from the point of view of a pipe maker, as I just make them for a hobby, sell a couple, but most are given or smoked. I try different things, just to have fun, really. Sure, always trying to get better, but not Bo Nordh better, at least not yet.

I have begun to collect pipes over the past several years. I try to collect American carvers, and it seems to me that one very, very important area has not been mentioned in regard to who will buy what, and at what price.

Longevity. If I buy X's pipe now for $350 will he or she be around in five, ten years and will his pipes be more well known? Collectors love to say "Yeah, I have an "X" and have the person to whom they are talking know who "X" is so they can go "oooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh." Human nature.

Will he be a Rad, or will he be described as "a maker who made pipes for a few/couple of years but doesn't make pipes any longer, and of which we have no information"?

If you believe that longevity is important, as I do, and as I think many collectors/buyers of higher end pipes do, how do you impart that idea/belief to the pipe buying community when you haven't been around making and selling great pipes for ten years?

Sure, some folks will take a flier hoping the carver goes big and mainstream three or five years from now. Others won't. Kind of a crap shoot, methinks.

Given the in depth level of knowledge in this forum, I bet some folks have previously considered this issue.

Or maybe my drugs have just kicked in with too much ferocity!
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by Vermont Freehand »

the part that has always confused me is what is the difference between a $1,000 pipe and a $5,000 pipe? Is it just name after a certain point, or are there technical things that make the difference?
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by LatakiaLover »

Vermont Freehand wrote:the part that has always confused me is what is the difference between a $1,000 pipe and a $5,000 pipe? Is it just name after a certain point, or are there technical things that make the difference?
It's complicated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_valuation
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by Literaryworkshop »

I'm glad this topic got out in the open for us amateurs to look at. When people first started asking me to make pipes (way before I had any idea of how to shape them), I really had no idea what kind of price to ask for the work. I've sold a few now, but it's still a shot in the dark any time I put a price on a pipe.

On the general woodworking forums, guys will often post the "How much should I charge for this?" question. The answers are always the same. Professionals have standard shop rates that take into consideration materials, time, overhead, wear-and-tear on tools, etc. Sit down with a calculator, plug in the variables, and you'll get your asking price. Problem is, many hobby woodworkers really can't make those calculations meaningful. So I spend a Saturday building some little object--let's say a simple box or wall shelf--for a friend. I know what the materials cost me, but I'm doing it in my spare time, and I'm doing it in a shop tied into my household utilities, and wear-and-tear on tools is negligible. I could charge what the materials cost me and be happy, or I could choose to ask for an arbitrary amount to compensate me for my time, or... or... who knows? There's no simple formula for a hobbiest to determine how much to charge for a product.

As a novice, a better approach for me has been to spend some quality time looking at pipes for sale and try to honestly figure out where my pipes fit into the price point scale. Right now, that's about $150. Would I like to be able to charge $300 for a pipe? Definitely. Some day, I hope to be able to make pipes that are worth $300 apiece. But I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't take $300 for one of my pipes right now. I've got to respect the free market, after all. :wink:

I know there are people with delusions of grandeur. Do many of them stick around? I mean, if you see a guy pricing his third-rate work at $500 right off the bat, do you expect to see him still offering that level of work for that price in five or ten years?
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by Yak »

Deleted as irrelevant.
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by RadDavis »

wmolaw wrote:If you believe that longevity is important, as I do, and as I think many collectors/buyers of higher end pipes do, how do you impart that idea/belief to the pipe buying community when you haven't been around making and selling great pipes for ten years?
Every pipe maker who ever lived and was world famous for making absolutely incredible pipes went through his first year of making pipes. And his second, and his third. And he just kept going.

There's no other way to get there as far as I can tell. :)

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Re: Details and Pricing

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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by RadDavis »

wmolaw, I meant to add: the best way I know of to demonstrate that you're serious about your pipe making early on and intend to stick with it is to go to as many shows as possible every year, if not more. :)

You'll see a lot of the the same faces at most every show, and they'll see yours. It not only shows you're serious, but they get to see the work up close and personal.

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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by wmolaw »

RadDavis wrote:wmolaw, I meant to add: the best way I know of to demonstrate that you're serious about your pipe making early on and intend to stick with it is to go to as many shows as possible every year, if not more. :)

You'll see a lot of the the same faces at most every show, and they'll see yours. It not only shows you're serious, but they get to see the work up close and personal.

Rad
Having given it thought, that was the only way I could imagine that an aspiring pipe maker could do it. Internet presence, nah, anyone and everyone can do that and it is an artificial interaction, at best. Face to face, time after time and word of mouth is the only way I believe it might happen.
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Re: Details and Pricing

Post by scotties22 »

wmolaw wrote:
RadDavis wrote:wmolaw, I meant to add: the best way I know of to demonstrate that you're serious about your pipe making early on and intend to stick with it is to go to as many shows as possible every year, if not more. :)

You'll see a lot of the the same faces at most every show, and they'll see yours. It not only shows you're serious, but they get to see the work up close and personal.

Rad
Having given it thought, that was the only way I could imagine that an aspiring pipe maker could do it. Internet presence, nah, anyone and everyone can do that and it is an artificial interaction, at best. Face to face, time after time and word of mouth is the only way I believe it might happen.

Or good ol' fashioned black magic.....that's my secret :wink:
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