What is the purpose of PMF?

[d.huber]

So much excellent stuff has already been said that it almost seems pointless to respond. But I will anyway.

Charl, while I agree that having high end pipes available to study (even if it's only in pictures) is absolutely indispensable if that's the type of pipe you'd like to make, I disagree that they need to be posted on this forum. There are many resources through which anyone who is driven can find thousands of images of pipes by the likes of Tom Eltang, Lars & Nanna Ivarsson, Hiroyuki Tokutomi, Kei Gotoh, Brad Pohlman, Jeff Gracik, Paolo Becker, Cornelius Maenz, Rad Davis... I could go on forever here. With a massive resource like the internet, why should we ask professional pipe makers to post their work? It's already been posted on a world-wide stage.

A quick list of websites worth studying:

http://www.smokingpipes.com
http://www.qualitybriar.com
http://www.scandpipes.com
http://www.alpascia.com
http://www.bisgaardpipes.com
http://www.pulverspriorbriar.com
http://www.briarblues.com

You could literally spend years studying the high grades on these websites and you should if that's what you want to make.

Sas, while it's difficult for me to agree that aiming for perfection isn't necessary in a pursuit (I don't know how it's possible not to) I can see that it brings a lot of people joy just to make something and that's great!

My question for you is: if we're not pursuing something, then why are we critiquing anything?

Also, to anyone who's brand new to the site and may have received some critique already: there is no one posting regularly to this site (that I'm aware of) who is interested in being cruel. If you receive a passionate diatribe of critique riddled with curses and occasional bits of inflammatory language, you're likely receiving some excellent advice. Listen and know that everyone here wants everyone else to improve. That's the kind of community PMF is. That's the kind of community you joined. Participate humbly and listen.

[LittleBill]

I see a lot of the same stuff in the woodturning world. There I am a name. Here I am a nothing. I am new to this stuff, but I intend to put the same amount of effort into learning to make great pipes as I have into making great turnings. But not everyone has that same motivation. Some folks just want to be able to smoke a pipe they made. Some want to sell everything that comes out of their shop. And some will strive for the best they can possibly do, regardless of whether they ever sell one or not. I think a site like this can fill everyone's requirements to a certain degree.

In the woodturning world, there are those who are focused on getting their name out there. They want to be famous, to be someone everyone else knows. Some accomplish that by hard work, building a reputation along with skill and experience. Some try by coming up with every sort of inane schtick they can concoct - sort of the "Hey everyone, look at me!" mentality in the "art" world. Most people just want to have fun taking firewood and making nice things on a wood lathe.

Some people genuinely want criticism of their work so they can improve. Most don't. I know that from hard experience, being thrust into the role of critic more times than I care to remember. It is a rare thing to find someone who really truly wants to hear about all the warts and blemishes on his or her turnings. Most people want an attaboy for their latest effort. The biggest problem with that is when all your "friends" tell you that you are great, and then you enter the big bad uncaring world. There is a lot of pain and disappointment waiting for you there.

I am here to learn. I am here to take my lumps so that I can do so. I know what will be involved, as I have already been that route once (or maybe twice). But for the guy who just wants people to tell him he has a nice pipe, I think there is room for him or her here too. Some folks are here to make a living, and some are here solely for the purpose of just having fun doing something they like. It is my personal belief that we should all love what we do. For that to happen, we need to find a way to do what we love. Right now I am doing that, and in the process of finding out if pipes will be a part of that. But even if I never sell a one, I will have some nice pipes I can smoke and give away to friends who don't know any better.

[d.huber]

For the sake of covering all the bases, curse riddled diatribes are not the only advice you may receive that's valuable, even if they do come from Ernie Markle.

In all seriousness, you can tell who will offer you sound advice by the work they create. Look around the forum, study others work, and, above all, be a driven, humble listener.

[LittleBill]

Here's how Mark Tinsky taught me how to make a pipe: He drilled a block, attached a stem, handed it to me and went to take a nap. When I was done, I went and woke him up to show it to him. I was proud as punch. He said, "At least you didn't ruin it. Most people ruin their first one." That was it. There was nothing he could say to help me. There was too much wrong. After about a dozen more pipes, he would look at one and say, "I like that shape. Try this, or this, or this."

Rad

I started out woodturning with a mentor like this. It was not helpful. I do not know Mark Tinsky at all beyond recognizing his name. But it is my experience in my own discipline that great craftsmen do not necessarily make for great, or even good teachers. You are exactly right in that the first, or even the first few of something a person makes is going to be rife with error. But, there has to be a baseline established so they know where to go instead of blundering about helplessly. That's how I learned to turn. It was not fun. It was painful, sometimes physically, when something came off the lathe and smacked me in the head. It really sucked ruining a piece that was mostly finished, and having no idea why.

Enter the teacher. A good teacher can direct even the most basic noob. I know this because I have taken people who have never held a lathe tool in their hands before, and some of them have gone on to become great turners. They had to start with the basics, but someone needs to know what those basics are in order to start there. Otherwise it is just a shot in the dark until he or she stumbles on success.

I look to this forum to be my main teacher. I prefer personal instruction, but this will have to do. I met you in Richmond, and you were kind enough to give me some constructive comments on my pipe I had with me. Those few things you mentioned gave me quantum leaps in my understanding. I am grateful for that. It is that kind of direction that a serious pipe maker needs. The hard part is figuring out who is serious and who is just playing.

[BigCasino]

I don't know If I am guilty of any of these the newbie sins, If so, none was meant in disrespect, and I do appreciate any and all advice given, I would hope that If I am some how disrespecting the forum/art/old gaurd, that someone would be Man/Lady enough to send me a PM and discuss it, rather than act rude and give snide remarks.

I also agree with both Sas, and Charl

But I think anyone who posts a picture of any type of art for critique and expects to get praises is doing so for the wrong reasons, or just doesn't understand why critiques are important

I have been selling "art" to the public for 15 years, and the one thing I have discovered is you don't need to know what you are doing right with your art/craft, you need to know what you are doing wrong, although it doesn't hurt to throw in some reassuring comments during a critique.
when I post a picture of a pipe on this forum my hopes are that the great carvers of this forum tear it apart, will it make me run away and cry on my pillow? probably not, but at least I will walk away with an idea on what to work on
I hope I am learning to "see" and I do agree that some will learn to see on their own and that some even need to learn to see on their own, but some guys need the push in the right direction to see what their goal should be.
I think this kind of fits in here, I once read a quote that said " when I was 15, I couldn't believe how stupid my Father was, when I turned 35, I couldn't believe how much he learned in the last 20 years"


In the 15 years I have been at my craft I have mentored 2 people and have started a 3rd, and I understand the disappointment when you feel like the person you are giving your hard earned knowledge is not listening to your advice.

I don't know if any of you guys have had the chance to have an apprentice on a daily basis, but when you strive for perfection and you also suffer from a bit of OCD it can become quite a task.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my opinions, and I hope the appreciation and respect I have for this forum and it's members, new and old shows through in my actions and posts

[Yak]

Deleted as irrelevant.

[BigCasino]

So much excellent stuff has already been said that it almost seems pointless to respond. But I will anyway.

Charl, while I agree that having high end pipes available to study (even if it's only in pictures) is absolutely indispensable if that's the type of pipe you'd like to make, I disagree that they need to be posted on this forum. There are many resources through which anyone who is driven can find thousands of images of pipes by the likes of Tom Eltang, Lars & Nanna Ivarsson, Hiroyuki Tokutomi, Kei Gotoh, Brad Pohlman, Jeff Gracik, Paolo Becker, Cornelius Maenz, Rad Davis... I could go on forever here. With a massive resource like the internet, why should we ask professional pipe makers to post their work? It's already been posted on a world-wide stage.

A quick list of websites worth studying:

http://www.smokingpipes.com
http://www.qualitybriar.com
http://www.scandpipes.com
http://www.alpascia.com
http://www.bisgaardpipes.com
http://www.pulverspriorbriar.com
http://www.briarblues.com

You could literally spend years studying the high grades on these websites and you should if that's what you want to make.

Sas, while it's difficult for me to agree that aiming for perfection isn't necessary in a pursuit (I don't know how it's possible not to) I can see that it brings a lot of people joy just to make something and that's great!

My question for you is: if we're not pursuing something, then why are we critiquing anything?

Also, to anyone who's brand new to the site and may have received some critique already: there is no one posting regularly to this site (that I'm aware of) who is interested in being cruel. If you receive a passionate diatribe of critique riddled with curses and occasional bits of inflammatory language, you're likely receiving some excellent advice. Listen and know that everyone here wants everyone else to improve. That's the kind of community PMF is. That's the kind of community you joined. Participate humbly and listen.

I dunno if I missed something but why does it seem as if established high end makers should not post pictures of their pipes ?

[Sasquatch]

It's not that they shouldn't, it's that there's no reason for them to do so. It's not helpful to them, won't raise their prices, won't increase their notoriety... like, why bother? It's a waste of their time, and they could be making pipes, for money, instead.

This forum doesn't exist to "help" established pipe makers, nor does it "owe" a newbie the time/experience of established pipe makers.

[BigCasino]

Ok I see that, I misunderstood what he meant Thanks!

Yak still waiting

[d.huber]

It's not that they shouldn't, it's that there's no reason for them to do so. It's not helpful to them, won't raise their prices, won't increase their notoriety... like, why bother? It's a waste of their time, and they could be making pipes, for money, instead.

This forum doesn't exist to "help" established pipe makers, nor does it "owe" a newbie the time/experience of established pipe makers.

What Sas said, but also because there's an enormous amount of their work that can be seen and studied easily. This forum is a place of learning and established makers are the professors, not the students.

[Yak]

Deleted as irrelevant.

[BigCasino]

Ahh ok Yak, I thought my stuff was broke

[FredS]

I haven't posted 'round here in ages, but I'll throw my thoughts out there. - There's forum named Following the Iron Brush that serves as a specialist area on the internet for artist’s who’s primary interests are small scale sculpture. The “Iron Brush” alludes to the chisel and represents their commitment to the very finest standards of craftsmanship in pursuit of the art. It's - in e markles words - a pursuit community. Some of the guys there even went so far as to put together and post a project lesson. The newbies who saw it as a project put in a few hours work and quickly submitted photographs of their work and were just as quickly dismissed (that's probably too harsh, but it's pretty accurate) as hacks with no real desire to pursue the craft. Those who saw it as a pursuit did not post their first attempts because they were horrible. They worked on it and took weeks before they submitted anything for critique. These folks were encouraged and their pursuits took off from there.

Though pmf doesn't have a formal sample project, the established guys here can tell who is a hobbyist and who wants to peruse the art based on the first pipe they post and will act accordingly. Everybody says they want to take it beyond hobby status, but few work like they want to. If you want to be taken seriously, then don't post your first pipe (or fifth pipe) along with a blurb saying "I see how I messed up here. And I could have done better there. And I should have polished it better. I did it all with a file and some 80 grit sandpaper." If you see what you did wrong then fix it. If you don't have even basic tools then get them. Don't ask for critique from others until you've addressed all your own critiques.

EDIT: A few days ago, on another social network, S Thile posted this link to a website that is full of great advice and encouragement for anyone who's trying to be a better artist, musician, athlete or anything else that requires long term skill building. One nugget from there:
Want to know the difference between a master and a beginner? The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried. Behind every great piece of art is a thousand failed attempts to make it. We just don't usually see the attempts.

[Tyler]

This is a fun thread.

Two comments:

First, the lament that there are more bad pipes posted now is a little surprising to me. There are more people now, so more bad pipes necessarily follow, I guess, but it doesn't feel much different to me than it ever has. Maybe the guys that feel it's changed have reached "puberty" and SEE the pipes in a way now that they didn't a few years ago (back in the good ol' days.). There have always been immature pipes posted in droves, and that's great. There has also always been lots of unheeded advice. I think that's the nature of advice.

Second, we DO have Jeff, TJ, Bruce, John, and Jack posting. They just happen to go by Rad, Ernie, Sas, Yeti, and Wayne. What happens, in my experience, is the forum loses its fizz for people once they quit receiving (learning) and are only asked to give (and give and give). Some stay, longer and continue to help, but usually not. Anyway, Jeff wasn't JEFF when he did most of his posting. He was a just another (talented) guy making pipes. Likewise all the rest.

What I hear Ernie and others saying is they are getting to the point that they have quit learning much here, and it's losing its fizz. I've been kicking some ideas around in my head about that, but I haven't landed on anything yet. I think this is just another opportunity to do something cool with this place, we just need to figure out what.

In other news, there are two types of people in this world, those who divide people into two groups, and those that don't. George is clearly in the former.

[Tyler]

I dunno if I missed something but why does it seem as if established high end makers should not post pictures of their pipes ?

They do post them all the time. The just post somewhere that's easier because there is no pay off posting here (and it's not easy to do).

Instagram is your friend.

[Sasquatch]

Solution is simplicity itself: kick Ernie off the board.

[mightysmurf8201]

Though pmf doesn't have a formal sample project, the established guys here can tell who is a hobbyist and who wants to peruse the art based on the first pipe they post and will act accordingly.

I think this forum does have a form of a sample project. The PITH that is done every year is an awesome opportunity to be given a task with certain parameters, complete the task, and be critiqued on it. I know that the one PITH that I was able to participate in was a big learning experience for me, and it challenged me and forced me out of my comfort zone. Just a suggestion, but would it be possible to maybe do a PITH twice, or even 3 times a year? I know that alot of people wouldn't be able to participate in all of them, but at least there would be more opportunities to participate. Any thoughts on this?

[Ocyd]

God Dang it These are men, mortal men not gods.

Anyways from the skimming and the lurking it just seems the situation is thus: The little birds from long ago grew up and flew the nest and that is the situation. That's fine and all to even great more power to them. Even with the influx from movies like the Hobbit and such it's still a shrinking art form if you're inclined to call it that or maybe even a tradition? Tradition is probably more accurate though because these damn kids these days opening up head shops (I tried googling pipe tobacco looking for a local place and got maybe one out of forty or so "tobacco" shops) have all moved on to glass and not for tobacco hell in some of them they don't even sell tobacco of any kind and the stuff they are designed for is still illegal most places. Do you know they are starting to even say things like combustion is dead using liquids and what not so they can just breath the vapors. Seriously I can see it now the govt is setting us up to ban fire and we don't even live in space yet, where it may even remotely be a problem That's not really the point I guess though. The point being I guess If the last generation is off being too busy to take an interest in those who want to learn a craft they will really be the last generation. I mean you can discuss motivations and all that till the govt bans all tobacco but it's not really practical or productive. Hell like was said earlier anyone can make a pipe out of practically anything but there is a proper way to do things and pmf is great place to find out what that is oh also a place for like and unlike minded people to hang out and discuss the the aforementioned making of pipes, not to mention a good place to start looking for resources.

And that is what pmf is for for me.

Poorly worded rambling essay by Ocyd age 11, grade 3

[mightysmurf8201]

I don't think anyone here is too busy to take an interest in the new guy. Like I mention earlier in this thread, I have never been turned down when seeking help or information. On the contrary, I have only been met with generosity and guidance.

[Ocyd]

I don't think anyone here is too busy to take an interest in the new guy. Like I mention earlier in this thread, I have never been turned down when seeking help or information. On the contrary, I have only been met with generosity and guidance.

That's it, you just earned yourself a place on "the list"