This question was asked on another pipe smokers forum:
"At base, I am troubled by the concept of value - an inherently subjective notion. I can 'see' the value in the artistic output of certain established makers - Vollmer & Nilsson, Brad Pohlmann, Manduela - for example. I know why their work is in demand, and in return, commands a certain cost. What I am having trouble 'seeing', is the value in the work of many artisans who have been producing for a few years, and are asking $400+ for their work. That they are 'getting' what they are asking is not being debated; what is at issue, is the question of value, and I hope to hear from members here on that."
I felt compelled to respond as follows:
"Let's talk simple value here. Not rarity, scarcity, artistic reputation, just costs and labor.
I have been making the journey from collector of pipes to maker of pipes...well not really leaving the collector part behind. As a maker of pipes, I now know what it costs to gear up, the price of quality briar, stem material, stains, finishes etc and most importantly how long it takes to make a hand made pipe with a hand-cut stem. If you start with a top quality block of briar and the best rod stock for the stem, the cost of materials alone is near $65. I put about an equal amount of time into making the stem as I do in shaping and sanding the briar part. On average it takes me about 14 hours, start to finish to make a pipe. Let's also add in $20 a day for the shop space and utilities.
I have not yet begun to sell my pipes and I make only smooth pipes as I don't have room in the shop for a blasting cabinet and compressor. Hypothetically, let's assume I charge $500 for a smooth pipe in my initial offerings, with no price differentials for grain grading. Subtract $65 for materials and $40 for two days of rent and utilities leaving $395 for my labor. Divide that by 14 (average number of hours to make the pipe) and what I am asking for is $28 an hour for my time. If your judgment, looking at my pipe, is that I have sufficiently developed skills to make a properly engineered, well shaped, and nicely finished pipe, is $28 an hour too much to ask? And when you ponder that question remember this is 2014 not 1980. What was the labor cost on your last car repair? Probably at least three times that amount. Would you really begrudge the guy who makes your pipes a wage one third of they guy's who fixes your car? If you answer yes than you should only be buying factory or estate pipes and leave the world of new hand made pipes to those who honor the craftsman and are willing to pay accordingly."
I am curious how others here would respond.
Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
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yachtexplorer
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E.L.Cooley
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Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
What do you value your hourly rate at? If in fact you're at $65 materials with a $20 hourly rate and $20 shop cost. I trust you are including sandpaper and stain in you $65? Here is what I see. $20x14hr $280+$65+$20=$365 of course you have not figured margin this is cost. So I don't know pipe making as an industry but in most industries 30% margin is fair and safe. So now your $365x1.42=$519.
Now what about abstracts that many people don't consider when developing their price point. What about local,state,and federal taxes. Depreciation of equipment, maintenance of equipment, briar that ends up in the firebox, FICA, lost time at work, vacation, shipping. The list goes on of other costs associated with being a bussiness. That if you're solely making pipes that each collector has to carry for you to have the freedom to produce them. I know I cannot make a $500 pipe. Yet.
In my industry guys often think I could do it for that or the company is charging too much but if you break it down the extras add up quick. Reading this it sounds like a rant sorry didn't mean to sounds like that. My wife is a photographer when she started we talked a bunch about all the hidden costs of operating. Lucky for her she has my income at her disposal.
So knowing all of the costs associated, the real question to the maker and the collector is what is your time worth.
Say 10 hours is the base line. Do I the collector value your time at more than you do as the maker. The flip side I thought $300 for a pipe was crazy until I knew the cost of goods and I could accurately value the makers time. Now I am willing to pay quite a bit more.
Sent from my banana phone.
Now what about abstracts that many people don't consider when developing their price point. What about local,state,and federal taxes. Depreciation of equipment, maintenance of equipment, briar that ends up in the firebox, FICA, lost time at work, vacation, shipping. The list goes on of other costs associated with being a bussiness. That if you're solely making pipes that each collector has to carry for you to have the freedom to produce them. I know I cannot make a $500 pipe. Yet.
In my industry guys often think I could do it for that or the company is charging too much but if you break it down the extras add up quick. Reading this it sounds like a rant sorry didn't mean to sounds like that. My wife is a photographer when she started we talked a bunch about all the hidden costs of operating. Lucky for her she has my income at her disposal.
So knowing all of the costs associated, the real question to the maker and the collector is what is your time worth.
Say 10 hours is the base line. Do I the collector value your time at more than you do as the maker. The flip side I thought $300 for a pipe was crazy until I knew the cost of goods and I could accurately value the makers time. Now I am willing to pay quite a bit more.
Sent from my banana phone.
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
That's a very realistic and probably inarguable approach. "How much should a pipe maker get paid, assuming he's any good at it?" If the answer is "enough to make a living" then pipes are expensive (by some standards).
When people pay 4000 bucks for an Ivarsson with burnout on eBay, I think that's crazy. Likewise, when I see a Sea Rock 65 listed for 525 somewhere I think that's crazy too - a rusticated pipe costing that much is bizarre to me, where 525 for a Yashtylov (maybe last year lol) is only fair or even a good deal.
It took me a long time to develop both the skillset and the confidence to say "I make objectively better pipes than brand x, y, and z, and I can charge more for them and it's not a ripoff for my customers. This isn't necessarily a smart way to to business, or rather, what it's done has been to keep my brand active and selling, and hopefully there isn't a forum full of people somewhere who bought one of my pipes and feels totally ripped off by it.
And yet there are stories where pipe makers will list a pipe for sale at 200 bucks and it won't move for a month. Re-list it a month later for 350 and it sells. This is not to say that ANY pipe will do so, but there is a certain crowd expecting to pay a certain price too (this comes in two forms - people who want an expensive pipe because it "must be gooder" and people who want to reward a carver in a more personal way, who WANT to pay the guy).
There's an obvious an undeniable boom in carving right now, a million new faces and a FLOOD of "artisan" product on the market. Which is to say there's lots of ugly amateur pipes going for 300 bucks right now, and that's fine. There's a "real" collector crowd who is paying more for better pipes (I hear anyhow - I service the ugly amateur market and it treats me well).
The masters of their craft will get paid in any craft, and there will be a bell curve with the fat part well below that both for buyers and sellers, for money and talent, where most of what goes on is below the front end of the bell curve. But the fat part is drifting, the perceived value of artisan pipes is definitely heading higher, and that's only good, right? With enough customers out there saying "I smoked a Teipen/King/Staples/Jones/Herbaugh/Davis/whoever pipe and it was the best thing I've ever smoked!" the value of a GOOD pipe will always be strong. The actual dollar number on any pipe... well, shit that's just what people will pay, no?
When people pay 4000 bucks for an Ivarsson with burnout on eBay, I think that's crazy. Likewise, when I see a Sea Rock 65 listed for 525 somewhere I think that's crazy too - a rusticated pipe costing that much is bizarre to me, where 525 for a Yashtylov (maybe last year lol) is only fair or even a good deal.
It took me a long time to develop both the skillset and the confidence to say "I make objectively better pipes than brand x, y, and z, and I can charge more for them and it's not a ripoff for my customers. This isn't necessarily a smart way to to business, or rather, what it's done has been to keep my brand active and selling, and hopefully there isn't a forum full of people somewhere who bought one of my pipes and feels totally ripped off by it.
And yet there are stories where pipe makers will list a pipe for sale at 200 bucks and it won't move for a month. Re-list it a month later for 350 and it sells. This is not to say that ANY pipe will do so, but there is a certain crowd expecting to pay a certain price too (this comes in two forms - people who want an expensive pipe because it "must be gooder" and people who want to reward a carver in a more personal way, who WANT to pay the guy).
There's an obvious an undeniable boom in carving right now, a million new faces and a FLOOD of "artisan" product on the market. Which is to say there's lots of ugly amateur pipes going for 300 bucks right now, and that's fine. There's a "real" collector crowd who is paying more for better pipes (I hear anyhow - I service the ugly amateur market and it treats me well).
The masters of their craft will get paid in any craft, and there will be a bell curve with the fat part well below that both for buyers and sellers, for money and talent, where most of what goes on is below the front end of the bell curve. But the fat part is drifting, the perceived value of artisan pipes is definitely heading higher, and that's only good, right? With enough customers out there saying "I smoked a Teipen/King/Staples/Jones/Herbaugh/Davis/whoever pipe and it was the best thing I've ever smoked!" the value of a GOOD pipe will always be strong. The actual dollar number on any pipe... well, shit that's just what people will pay, no?
ALL YOUR PIPE ARE BELONG TO US!
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wisemanpipes
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Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
great post Sass! as for the argument....people will pay what they want to pay. who cares if someone is making significantly lower quality work than you and getting paid more. either youre not branding yourself properly or youre not getting something that they are... fix it! if your pipe deserves to sell, then it probably will, eventually. If collectors wants a nice pipe and doesnt want to pay 500+ for it, there are hundreds and thousands of pipe makers out there right now to choose from. This issue really is inarguable, what you want to get paid and what you should get paid are two entirely different things, and i'm slowly learning that with my own work.
Evan
Evan
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Unlike car repairmen, pipemakers don't get to apprentice anymore. It was still possible some 20 years ago, but now there are almost no options for a new pipemaker to get a job in a pipe factory or pipe repair shop where he could learn the basics of the craft. Nowadays pipemakers need to learn everything on their own, and they need to learn it fast. We don't get to use someone else's workshop for more than a couple of days, which is normal for people learning to repair cars. This lack of apprenticeship has a big influence on the market.
Another aspect, still following the car repair comparison, is that an artisan pipemaker in the $400+ range is not the equivalent of a car repairman. It's (or at least it should be) the equivalent of a specialized vintage or luxury car repair. And the costs of those kind of shops are probably sky high (I don't know squat about it, so I'm just assuming).
There are less reliable factory made pipes and more unreliable artisans, that's why some buyers might be getting confused.
Another aspect, still following the car repair comparison, is that an artisan pipemaker in the $400+ range is not the equivalent of a car repairman. It's (or at least it should be) the equivalent of a specialized vintage or luxury car repair. And the costs of those kind of shops are probably sky high (I don't know squat about it, so I'm just assuming).
There are less reliable factory made pipes and more unreliable artisans, that's why some buyers might be getting confused.
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
I smoke (present tense) a Sasquatch and it's the best one I've ever smoked in 40 years even though (in pipe years) it's a newborn.
That said, and from having some perspective on this stuff via coming from a place with a 400-year history,
News Flash : LIFE AIN'T FAIR.
Doing craft work with your hands means -- historically -- 12-14 hour days and coming up short of prosperity by enough to notice. Exceptions to this have largely been in Cartel/Guild situations (and good luck on that one).
That the money people make is somehow or other a reflection of the actual value they produce -- to anyone -- is bullshit. Look at the income of the sewage producers in places like Hollywood and compare that with the income level of craftspeople.
That said, and from having some perspective on this stuff via coming from a place with a 400-year history,
News Flash : LIFE AIN'T FAIR.
Doing craft work with your hands means -- historically -- 12-14 hour days and coming up short of prosperity by enough to notice. Exceptions to this have largely been in Cartel/Guild situations (and good luck on that one).
That the money people make is somehow or other a reflection of the actual value they produce -- to anyone -- is bullshit. Look at the income of the sewage producers in places like Hollywood and compare that with the income level of craftspeople.
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E.L.Cooley
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Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Sas then what is a living is a fair question. I would think that a fair living in the US should be at least $80k take home. To really say it's worth your time? I'm not sure how that exchanges to bitcoin is that what you guys use up there? I know "a living" is subjective but a squirrel has got to get a nut as well. Maybe my perspective is skewed I live in a location with no state tax and one of lowest costs of living? I guess that is another variable.
I think one of the hardest parts to swallow if you came into this from the artist point of view is understanding that you also will have to be involved in the bussiness end. (Pun intended) which is not fun. A good girlfriend is a painter. Canvas not houses. She was approached by a professor at the university. He said" I'd like to commission you for a painting." She as the artist not bussiness woman said ok. 75% through the process she realized he meant I want you to give me a painting when he said commission. When you look at the painting if you know the story you can see the transition. Quite literally there is a 25% section that shows the night sky. Learning curve.
This topic of course always brings discussion. Which is good. It's important.
Not as important as grain orientation but important. Hope you are all well.
Sent from my banana phone.
I think one of the hardest parts to swallow if you came into this from the artist point of view is understanding that you also will have to be involved in the bussiness end. (Pun intended) which is not fun. A good girlfriend is a painter. Canvas not houses. She was approached by a professor at the university. He said" I'd like to commission you for a painting." She as the artist not bussiness woman said ok. 75% through the process she realized he meant I want you to give me a painting when he said commission. When you look at the painting if you know the story you can see the transition. Quite literally there is a 25% section that shows the night sky. Learning curve.
This topic of course always brings discussion. Which is good. It's important.
Not as important as grain orientation but important. Hope you are all well.
Sent from my banana phone.
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E.L.Cooley
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:36 pm
- Location: Colorado Springs, Co
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
keilwerth wrote:Unlike car repairmen, pipemakers don't get to apprentice anymore. It was still possible some 20 years ago, but now there are almost no options for a new pipemaker to get a job in a pipe factory or pipe repair shop where he could learn the basics of the craft. Nowadays pipemakers need to learn everything on their own, and they need to learn it fast. We don't get to use someone else's workshop for more than a couple of days, which is normal for people learning to repair cars. This lack of apprenticeship has a big influence on the market.
Another aspect, still following the car repair comparison, is that an artisan pipemaker in the $400+ range is not the equivalent of a car repairman. It's (or at least it should be) the equivalent of a specialized vintage or luxury car repair. And the costs of those kind of shops are probably sky high (I don't know squat about it, so I'm just assuming).
There are less reliable factory made pipes and more unreliable artisans, that's why some buyers might be getting confused.
Hmm I think you guys are mentoring me. It just looks different. You share some technique, knowledge of tools, quality control ect. Even say when we graduate. Like an apprentice I give away my work for cost now because I am paying for my education. Not to you, but from my pocket.
There are chat times, articles ands couple times a year show and get togethers.
A real master quote. "Decent job, no go make 20 more..." You fill in he blanks (read billiards).
It's happening now, here. So we know you've all heard us ask questions that are above our technical abilities now, but the passion develops.
Sorry off topic. I won't work on a deusenburg until I can regularly remember to put the oil fill cap back on the honda during an oil change.
Sent from my banana phone.
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The Smoking Yeti
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Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Richard, I saw that post too- I appreciate your response. I didn't feel it was my place to respond though, as I'm very biased. But from a pipemaker's perspective, I couldn't sell for any less and still make it. In fact- at some point I'd like to charge more- but I haven't because I want my quality to be worth more than what people pay.
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
You have a point, but trust me, direct workshop experience is invaluable. This forum is an excellent resource, but you can learn more in a week or two in someone's workshop than you ever will just from reading. Of course you cannot compare the two directly, I just wanted to say that the kind of apprenticeship I was talking about cannot be replaced by any forum, no matter how good and informative it is.Ccoolee wrote: Hmm I think you guys are mentoring me. It just looks different. You share some technique, knowledge of tools, quality control ect. Even say when we graduate. Like an apprentice I give away my work for cost now because I am paying for my education. Not to you, but from my pocket.
There are chat times, articles ands couple times a year show and get togethers.
A real master quote. "Decent job, no go make 20 more..." You fill in he blanks (read billiards).
It's happening now, here. So we know you've all heard us ask questions that are above our technical abilities now, but the passion develops.
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E.L.Cooley
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- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:36 pm
- Location: Colorado Springs, Co
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Keilwerth,
Understood. As much as I'd love to have some hands on with a mentor, anyone close to southeast Wyoming need their floor swept? I'll take what I can get and look forward to meet ups so I can see others hands at work.
Sent from my banana phone.
Understood. As much as I'd love to have some hands on with a mentor, anyone close to southeast Wyoming need their floor swept? I'll take what I can get and look forward to meet ups so I can see others hands at work.
Sent from my banana phone.
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Joe Hinkle Pipes
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Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Thats true. I have been hacking away at this for about 3 years without ever having a face to face with ANYONE who knows what makes a truly nice pipe and it has hindered my progress greatly. A simple correction during shaping or stem making or finishing by saying "there is a better way to do that" is what makes quick growth possible. Dont get me wrong, there is a great wealth of information on this forum, but there are things that just cant be taught through this forum. I Imagine when I get to Smoker's Haven tomorrow there will be some guys that say a certain aspect of my pipes is surprisingly good. There will also be some areas (some of which I am embarrassingly aware of) that are utterly terrible. That is the input I am missing right now to take my skills to the next level.keilwerth wrote:You have a point, but trust me, direct workshop experience is invaluable. This forum is an excellent resource, but you can learn more in a week or two in someone's workshop than you ever will just from reading. Of course you cannot compare the two directly, I just wanted to say that the kind of apprenticeship I was talking about cannot be replaced by any forum, no matter how good and informative it is.Ccoolee wrote: Hmm I think you guys are mentoring me. It just looks different. You share some technique, knowledge of tools, quality control ect. Even say when we graduate. Like an apprentice I give away my work for cost now because I am paying for my education. Not to you, but from my pocket.
There are chat times, articles ands couple times a year show and get togethers.
A real master quote. "Decent job, no go make 20 more..." You fill in he blanks (read billiards).
It's happening now, here. So we know you've all heard us ask questions that are above our technical abilities now, but the passion develops.
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E.L.Cooley
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:36 pm
- Location: Colorado Springs, Co
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Sad I won't be there.
Sent from my banana phone.
Sent from my banana phone.
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
It's probably findable, but many years ago, there was a guy who came onto a pipe making forum, and he showed off his pipes, and his website, and had his whole shpiel ready to go. But his pipes weren't really selling, and he wasn't asking oodles, but you could have bought a nice pipe for that kind of money. Let's say 200 or 250 bucks.
A lot of talk about taking photographs ensued. Lighting, f-stops, backgrounds, how to make the product fetching, as it were. Because his photos weren't great. And eventually, one of the big boys (I think Todd Johnson) stepped in and said in effect "Hey, the thing is, these pipes are pretty ugly, and if you made better pipes, you wouldn't have to worry about this crap."
Now, that was no doubt a blow to the guy, and honestly I don't remember him posting much after that. But it was bang on.
My experience is, if you make a nice pipe, someone will buy it for a pretty fair price. Now, there's 5000 pipes which are objectively no better than 500 dollar pipes right now, but I don't really want to talk about that so much, I think we are talking about "most of us" not the elite few.
For most of us, if we make a nice pipe, it will sell, and if we make an ugly pipe, it won't. Like, you look at Yeti's pipes, and he's like 13 years old and he's made 5, except... they're really very nice because he's putting a lot of work and thought into them, and has talent. Some of us, some of us named Sasquatch, for example, have had to work a lot harder at making stuff that wasn't totally ugly, and what we've seen as we've ground along is that if you shape well and finish well, pipes sell. IF you take advice from better makers, they sell real fast. Eventually, this becomes a niche that you and you alone fill, because we all have our own tooling, our own preferences, and eventually our own style. The money might lean a little heavier toward a Ramses than a billiard, but there's ALWAYS money for a good billiard, there really is. There's plenty of space in this craft.
That's the pipes.
Tie this in to some social experimenting I did last year in Chicago. Last May, I packed up my tools from some job site, drove home, unhooked the trailer, drove to the airport and got on a plane. Like, that was my prep for the show. I had 2 pipes. No signs, no flashing lights. Nothing. And I pretty much spent the whole show being "nobody". It was fun and relaxing. A few times people came up to me and said "Hey, I understand you're the Sasquatch." and either wanted to buy a pipe or just shoot the shit. But as a nobody, my pipes were nobody pipes, my advice or opinions were nobody advice and opinions. But sit at a table with the mighty fucking Sasquatch and my GOD, then we know we're with someone who KNOWS HIS SHIT, by golly. It was wild. So the people that bought my pipes did so because of who I am, or my reputation, not even because they liked the pipes so much. That was a wake-up. Now, that reputation, whatever it is, is what I've been doggedly pursuing for 5 years too, so it's not like I'm clueless about this either. But it was still interesting to see.
People want a brand, a code, a reputation, a fucking white dot for all intents and purposes, and you better give it to them if you are serious about this shit.
A lot of talk about taking photographs ensued. Lighting, f-stops, backgrounds, how to make the product fetching, as it were. Because his photos weren't great. And eventually, one of the big boys (I think Todd Johnson) stepped in and said in effect "Hey, the thing is, these pipes are pretty ugly, and if you made better pipes, you wouldn't have to worry about this crap."
Now, that was no doubt a blow to the guy, and honestly I don't remember him posting much after that. But it was bang on.
My experience is, if you make a nice pipe, someone will buy it for a pretty fair price. Now, there's 5000 pipes which are objectively no better than 500 dollar pipes right now, but I don't really want to talk about that so much, I think we are talking about "most of us" not the elite few.
For most of us, if we make a nice pipe, it will sell, and if we make an ugly pipe, it won't. Like, you look at Yeti's pipes, and he's like 13 years old and he's made 5, except... they're really very nice because he's putting a lot of work and thought into them, and has talent. Some of us, some of us named Sasquatch, for example, have had to work a lot harder at making stuff that wasn't totally ugly, and what we've seen as we've ground along is that if you shape well and finish well, pipes sell. IF you take advice from better makers, they sell real fast. Eventually, this becomes a niche that you and you alone fill, because we all have our own tooling, our own preferences, and eventually our own style. The money might lean a little heavier toward a Ramses than a billiard, but there's ALWAYS money for a good billiard, there really is. There's plenty of space in this craft.
That's the pipes.
Tie this in to some social experimenting I did last year in Chicago. Last May, I packed up my tools from some job site, drove home, unhooked the trailer, drove to the airport and got on a plane. Like, that was my prep for the show. I had 2 pipes. No signs, no flashing lights. Nothing. And I pretty much spent the whole show being "nobody". It was fun and relaxing. A few times people came up to me and said "Hey, I understand you're the Sasquatch." and either wanted to buy a pipe or just shoot the shit. But as a nobody, my pipes were nobody pipes, my advice or opinions were nobody advice and opinions. But sit at a table with the mighty fucking Sasquatch and my GOD, then we know we're with someone who KNOWS HIS SHIT, by golly. It was wild. So the people that bought my pipes did so because of who I am, or my reputation, not even because they liked the pipes so much. That was a wake-up. Now, that reputation, whatever it is, is what I've been doggedly pursuing for 5 years too, so it's not like I'm clueless about this either. But it was still interesting to see.
People want a brand, a code, a reputation, a fucking white dot for all intents and purposes, and you better give it to them if you are serious about this shit.
ALL YOUR PIPE ARE BELONG TO US!
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E.L.Cooley
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Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Well said, might fucking Sasquatch!
Sent from my banana phone.
Sent from my banana phone.
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Good luck with that if you're making pipes for a living.Ccoolee wrote:Sas then what is a living is a fair question. I would think that a fair living in the US should be at least $80k take home.
Gross income, maybe, if your really efficient in the shop.
Rad
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The Smoking Yeti
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Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
I'm hoping to break the poverty line this year 
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sandahlpipe
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Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Don't do it! You'll just end up paying more in taxes.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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E.L.Cooley
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Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
I don't even know where that line is, if I get close someone warn meThe Smoking Yeti wrote:I'm hoping to break the poverty line this year
and I'll slow down.
Sent from my banana phone.
Re: Collectors ongoing debate on pipe values -
Bingo.the people that bought my pipes did so because of who I am
In the expectation that some of what comes across in your interacting with people had to come across in your pipes as well.
And it does.
Pipe baraka.
At the end of the day, what closes many a deal is the relationship the salesman has with the purchasing agent. And often times, it's away from the direct selling environment. Like on the golf course. Or in a corporate executive box at the stadium.
Hell, even on a pipe board
