pricing paradox for new makers

[Tyler]

Pricing is always a fun topic.

Part of the price an established maker can charge, is "name", which is to say, he is rewarded for making a consistent, quality product over some span of time. As such, a new maker, with equal quality must charge less. Why? Because the risk is higher on the new maker. His consistency is unproven. As a new maker one must be satisified getting less than one might expect to get as part of the growing process.

That said, what is less? That depends on a number of other factors. If you are going to sell exclusively over the Internet, the answer is WAY, WAY less. Photos alone are a big risk for an unknown. IF you are going to sell them in person, at a club or shows, then the amount you decrease the price over "normal" is less. Of course, "normal" is hugely ambiguious as well. "Normal" is, I suppose, some median price of pipes that are of equal quality. The question is, are you objective enough to establish what quality range you pipes belong in in order to work in the correct range?

Another factor is time. Time is really of no concern to the buyer. If it takes you 14 hours or 4 hours, they are going to buy the pipe for the end result. If you make a stunner in 4 hours, you will get more for it that for a 14 hour mediocre pipe. With that in mind, being full-time verses part-time has big implications. If you cannot make a pipe in a short amount of time, you will need to charge very high prices for your pipes. If you charge high prices, you have to be making qaulity that will deserve it. Factoring in the discreased amount that a new carver can charge, and you have to be pretty incredible at pipe making to make a living at it while still in the category of new carver.

Since I have mentioned quality so many times, let me add that aesthetics are included in my use of the term quality. Quality pipes are more than simply technically perfect pipes. Kit pipes can be technically perfect, but they will never fetch $500+. When judging the quality of one's pipes, aesthetics are a critical part of the evaluation.

I'm sure there are myraid variables that I did not cover, but that hits the highlights that come to mind.

I look forward to hearing everyone else's thoughts.

Tyler

[ArtGuy]

Pricing is as difficult with pipes as it is with works of art. The way I see it, if a carver who has just recently decided to market his pipes (this would not neccessarily mean they are a new carver) is making pipes that are of equal quality to those making pipes in say the 100, 250 or 300+ dollar range then they should be able to charge that amount.

The difficult thing is determining what level of price you pipes are in. The way I intend to do that is to consult with experienced collectors whom I feel I can trust to give me an honest evaluation. I think it is very important to have these people evaluate your pipes in person. I then plan to start my prices slightly below the level they give me.

By pricing just below their estimated dollar range, I hope to entice collectors into taking a chance on buying from a carver that they may not have heard of while still reamaining close enough to my target market. This way I hope I can increase my price as demand and product improvement permits and still be able to reach my target range.

If I find that due to either craftsmanship, design or aesthetic issues my pipes are nowhere near the range I want to sell them in then my only choices are to either sell them to a lower range market or hold off on releasing them until I can improve my product.

I do not take time into consideration when coming up with a price. As Tyler suggests, in the end all that matters is how much collectors will pay. They do not care, nor should they care, how long it took for that pipe to be carved. (Personally I do not think they should care how long that carver has been at thier craft either. But many do, so that is something the new carver has to deal with.)

I hope that with this method I can start at a price that will allow for 3 things:

1. Buy more materials to make pipes
2. Stay in reach of my final target price
3. Start off as close to the prices of the full time carvers as possible and still sell pipes.

Notice I did not put anything about profit in there. I am going into this with the expectation that it very well may take a full year of good marketing and consistent improvement to even start to make any spending cash much less a living off of my pipe income (But I don't intend to ever make a living off of my pipes).


Anyhow, that is my plan for now

[KurtHuhn]

Ah, the pricing question rears again.

Personally, and this may or may not be the right strategy, I've priced my pipes at what I percieve as a market need. I mentioned before that one of my customers has told me in the past that there's an invisible ceiling at about $100. People want quality, handmade pipes, but can't afford to pay a lot of money for them. For these people, that one $85 pipe might be the highest grade pipe in their rotation of basket pipes and Dr Grabows. Is it a niche? Yes. Is it sustainable? I don't know.

Given the above, if you look at my pipes, I've got two lines - graded pipes and the countryman line. The countryman line could be described as marked seconds - though I shy away from the term "second". These pipes are *very* affordable, and my time investment in them is minimal - which is not to say that they're poor quality. Internally, these pipes are exactly like my graded line, but due to surface flaws or shapes that went awry, they end up in that line. I also will, from time to time, grab a block of briar and create a pipe with the sole intent of making a countryman pipe. The reasons usually are that my offerings in that line have dwindled, or I just feel like making one. Nothing deeper to it, really. However, I don't spend loads of time on this line. I can't. I'd end up losing money if I did.

Also, if you look at the grades I have for sale, they range from A to E. You rarely see an E (and if you do, I probably kept it for myself as a learning tool), and a D usually becomes a countryman. Given that, the only grades you're going to see in that section are A, B, and C. Today, the C grade is predominant, only two pipes I've prouced to date have been graded B (the one in my logo is one) and I've not yet produced an A. This leaves room for future price increases as I become more adept. Considering that this is a constant learning experience, and I've been only doing this for two years or so, I expect to start producing B grades with regularity soon - but probably no As for a couple years, at least not with any regularity.

As I start producing more B grades, the prices for those pipes will climb. Obviously, the A grades will demand a correspondingly higher price as well.

Now, should anything less than an A grade be discarded? No, certainly not. Perhaps some makers can afford to do this, and the prices of their pipes factor this in - Trevor has a short blurb on his website about this, at least if memory serves. And this is a good point. Part timers, and even most full-timers, can't afford to do that unless they're established, respected makers with a following and steady stream of customers. The rest of us need a grading system to establish prices and let buyers know what they're looking at.

I hope I didn't confuse the issue even more, but grading seems to be something that is sometimes looked over when discussions of pipe prices comes up.

As far as what to charge for the various grades? I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. When I start producing B grade pipes with regularity, I'll have to examine my price structure at that time. I expect B grades to go for somewhere between $100 and $200, but where is still a discussion I need to have with myself and other pipe makers.

[Tyler]

Let me clarify an apparent difference between what I said, and what John said. I think there is a price range in which a new carver can get the full amount that the quality of his work deserves. That is in the lower range, say <$300. By contrast though, let's say a relatively new maker makes a pipe of the quality level of a $1000 pipe. He is not going to get it. At least, not until he gets word out about him that will draw the demand for a $1000 pipe. The problem is, word won't get out if no one has one of his pipes. I think from here we can all see the difficulty.

Tyler

[omar_colocci]

Well, about marketing strategy, maybe the best thing to do is to take care of WHO do you sell your first pipes to, not HOW MANY.

[Tyler]

Omar,

That is very strategic too, but there us still a "how many" even with a strategic "who".



tyler

[ArtGuy]

Let me clarify an apparent difference between what I said, and what John said. I think there is a price range in which a new carver can get the full amount that the quality of his work deserves. That is in the lower range, say <$300. By contrast though, let's say a relatively new maker makes a pipe of the quality level of a $1000 pipe. He is not going to get it. At least, not until he gets word out about him that will draw the demand for a $1000 pipe. The problem is, word won't get out if no one has one of his pipes. I think from here we can all see the difficulty.

Tyler

True, there would be a limit to what a new carver can get right off the bat. I suppose my point was that just because the carver is relativly new on the scene it should not assumed that the craftsmanship somehow is lacking. (And if it is not lacking, then it seems silly to require them to sell thier wares lower just to satisfy somebody elses notion of "paying thier dues")

Basicly if you want 250.00 for your pipes then you have to make certain that your pipes are in every way equal to those pipes currently in that range. When you are talking about upwards of 700.00 then I think you are not going to get that price as a new carver. At least not without some pretty heavy sponsors.

I have no idea what price my pipes are right now. That is why I am going to Chicago.

Tyler, I think we may be in violent agreement here. Just didn't clarify enough

[Tyler]

John,

I couldn't agree more.



Tyler

[marks]

I have given a lot of though to this question, and I am no closer to an answer than I was at the begining.

[jeff]

I'm with Mark on this one, at least to a point. I'm somewhat confused about the price issue too. Of course I'd like to sell my pipes from $300-$500. Would I pay that much? No. But I wouldn't spend $300 on a Baldo Baldi pipe either. However, the fact that others can sell for this much (or much more!) to a select crowd of people at least provides an open door to that room. I think that Kurt is right on one hand with his point about the "invisible ceiling." Hell, I paid $12 on ebay for my first 6 pipes. And that was total, not each! But, on the other hand there are those people who prioritize this in their finances. Buying a smokeable piece of art is worth it to some. The question remains, to whom do you wish to sell?

I would love to own a Ferrari, but I'll probably drive a chevy for the rest of my life. Do I like Chevy's? Not particularly, but they get the job done and look okay while they are doing it. But, Chevy also makes the Corvette.

Ahh, the loophole.

Perhaps it would be best, at least for us newbies, jr. apprentices, et al, to make some standard shapes. Make them the best we can. Be proud of them. But sell them for around 100 bones. However, when that beautiful piece of briar shows up. You know, that one that has a beautiful freehand shape inside that you cannot resist exposing. When that one shows up, carve it. Take it's picture. Slap an appropriately HIGH price tag on it as a signature series, or limited edition, or one of a kind (I know, the all are). The name, price, and photo will draw attention to it and perhaps someone will be attracted enough that they'd be willing to pay for it.

I don't know, maybe the analogy is bad, maybe it's oversimplified, but I think there is something to the "diamond in the rough" so to speak. The exceptional pipe is not the norm, and having it appear among a collection of stock shapes will certainly draw attention to it. When it sells, carve and post two more. Then three, four, and so forth. Keep up with the stock ones though because the special one needs to remain special (and you need to sell those stock shapes to pay the bills in the month or more that the high-dollar one is for sale.) Well, that's my take and I'm sticking to it. ...for now that is.

Jeff

[ArtGuy]

Who would have ever thought that pricing pipes would be harder than carving them???? 8O

[Nick]

LOL! Makes me glad I'm just a hobbiest!

[dquisenberry]

I have had initial pipe pricing conversations with a number of people, but from a consumer point of view. I saw nearly all of Tyler's initial pipes (up through his initial Chicago show) and had a number of discussions with him regarding pricing. [I'm sure Tyler can tell you I made him wince several times, however, I can also say my best smoking and overall favorite pipe is a Tyler reject. ] I have also seen all of Will Purdy's pipes and we have dicussed this same topic several times. There is a local pipemaker who is just now starting to sell his work and he is going thru the same delima. As I mentioned earlier, I am a consumer, however I did make one pipe this spring, mostly to understand the process. I know that for every pipemaker how much work went into a pipe is mentally factored into how much he 'values' it and thinks others should too when he is setting his initial pricing strategy which very much includes determingin a grading system which he an stick with over the long term. Tyler spoke my exact opinon on this - Hours spent never factor into what a consumer is willing to pay. As an entry level pipemaker, you are not only competing against being unknown, you are also competing against those who have made many pipes in a factory or as an apprentice. In the internet age, you now compete against every artisian pipemaker out there. At Chicago this year, I met Joao Reis from Portugal. This guy had pipes that rivaled many $1000 pipes yet he was charging $200 for them. A friend picked up one of his and I promise you it was every bit as good (in all categories) as what I have seen from up and comers such as Manz. That makes it tough to compete at a $150-250 category unless your work is equlivant. While new carvers can in a fairly short time create technically accurate drilled and aligned pipes, the biggest flaw I find in their work is the overall flow of a pipe. I would suggest this. Take a piece you are happy with to an art major in college who knows nothing about pipes. Ask them from an art perspective what they like/dislike about it. Odds are they will skip the grain, the shank / bit alignment, and the button, but will point out ungraceful lines. This is what IMO seperates a $75 pipe from a $250 pipe. If you are not near an art collector, print a copy of a danish styled pipe, or a classic English shaped highgrade and show your pipe and the picture to a friend. Ask them how yours is different. Usually they differences are easy to spot. It is even more obvious when you are comparing both pipes in picture format, where you do not have a three dimensional view.

[Tyler]

Quiz,

Glad to hear you still are enjoying the pipe!

You offer some good advice. In reality artisan pipes are largely about aesthetics. I can have a block drilled, with stem fitted, in a matter of minutes. Technically I have a pipe. With a few more minutes time, I can deal with the details that make for a well engineered pipe that will maximize the likelihood of a good smoker. For that I could get $30 as a kit. It is not until I make it LOOK good that I can sell it for hundreds of dollars.

If one is having trouble selling pipes for the price they are set then one is either not techincally there yet with drilling, fit, and finish, or people just don't like how the pipes look for the price. Since the technical aspects of a pipe are relatively easy, most people struggle with selling their pipes because of aesthetics. (Let me quickly point out that aesthetics are difficult to communicate via Internet photos. Selling via the Internet is a challenge until one's name is well established.)

Thanks for the post David. This is always a pertinent topic.

Tyler

[Nick]

Kudos to you Random!

I better get a random pipe before the market does catch up with you.

[ToddJohnson]

The fates will have their way regardless of our desires, and we will become better for it.

Random,

I dont mean to stir up controversy here, but if this is your mentality, don't expect to sell pipes. Selling pipes can take effort. I realize that your contacts in the pipe communty are somewhat limited right now, but there's no shame in trying to move your product. If you believe in it, which it's clear that you do, then you need not feel like you're peddling stolen watches on the street. Get out there and *sell* your pipes if it's really a matter of financial survival. The fact that a given pipe won't or hasn't sold is not indicative of the fact that its not salable, rather that you've not found the right buyer for it yet. So find him and tell him why he should buy the pipe. Later sales may come more easily, but sitting back and waiting for people to stumble across your site is probably not the most effective sales technique. I'm sure you have your own way of doing things that is based on an altruistic philosophy of sales, but maybe this will be helpful advice. Who knows?

Todd

[achduliebe]

Random,

For what it's worth coming from a newbie with very little pipe making and pipe smoking experience, your pipes are awesome. I fell in love with your pipe 0028, that was a great pipe. I think 0029 is awesome too and if I could scrape up the money it would be mine. Unfortunately, being summer and having three little ones running around the extra money is scarce, but I do plan on owning a Random pipe eventually. When I look at the pipes you make, they are definately visually appealing and reading the posts that you place on this site, I know the engineering is most definately there. How could anyone lose with that combo.

In my opinion, I had better get one of your pipes before you start getting the BIG bucks for them, because I definately feel the potential is there.