The psychology of rarity

[LatakiaLover]

That's not the title of the article, but it should be. Pipes, violins, (a lot of) wine, cigars, and spirits, and it even has an effect on music, literature, and visual arts:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/05/ ... t-a-violin

[Tyler]

Interesting and not overly surprising. The final comment was most interesting to me:

Sometimes when you debunk a myth, you realize part of you kind of liked the myth.

[Sasquatch]

Light two pipes packed with the same tobacco. The smoke is.....the same. It really is.

How the pipe feels, how the bit feels etc is not identical however. So there's a genuine difference in certain areas, but the idea that some pipe is of better provenance than another and therefore somehow objectively superior is mostly horse puckey.

Thing is, (and going back to instruments) I just bought a Martin because, well... goddam it, it sounded like a Martin. I have a Breedlove that is setup better, has a better electronics package and a better neck. It doesn't sound like the D-28 though. And my WW2 era Kaywoodie is a great pipe but it doesn't SMOKE like my Peterson 140th. (Even though it's rarer?)


Some people know by now through observation or talking to me that this whole pipe making thing has been an experiment by me on brown-paper-packaging. It will only get you so far. Far enough, maybe, but you do need to sell sizzle even with very decent steaks, because the guy up the road might not be selling such good steaks, but his sizzle is probably 10 times better.

[Yak]

Sigh

People have been doing A/B tests like that since at least 1875. And they always run to the newspapers & magazines to announce their discoveries to the world. The modern guy's instruments are 80% of the time better than the old ones (the remaining 20% about tied with them).

People in the instrument trade laugh at them.

For one thing, sound on a stage is one thing. After Fodor won the Tchaikovsky Competition & had the backing $ to buy whatever violin he wanted, the guys in Philadelphia talked him into buying a new Peresson in preference to an old Del Gesu. On the stage of the Academy of Music it sounded bigger, fuller, more even & ballsier. What he didn't know was that the sound of an average fiddle starts choking & dying past the end of the stage -- it doesn't project. The old one, problems and all, does, the way you can hear a softly struck triangle through an orchestra playing fff. (As confirmed -- as if basic 101 stuff like this needed to be -- by comparing what he sounded like when I was on stage with him against hearing him from the audience in a hall).

There is even the matter of even good players taking years to learn how to get the best out of an instrument. Case in point, when Yo Yo Ma had just gotten the Davidoff Strad. They broadcasted him playing the second movement of the Brahms Sonata Op. 108 on it with Costanzelina Rice at the White House (why who knows). He sounded like shit on it -- he was used to his Motagnana, which takes a completely different approach. (When Piatigorsky got the Batta Strad, he woodshedded with it for two years before he took it out in public. Called it his honeymoon).

The whole thing is complex, but it's pretty well understood by people familiar with it from long experience. What it doesn't do is reduce to a simplistic comparison made by people lacking the ability to evaluate the whole from playing/hearing the part. Sounds probably pretty obnoxiously snotty, but there IS a reason why a guy just paid Fein about $14,000,000 for the ex Vieuxtemps Del Gesu.

It's not too unlike the similar piece in the pipe collector's magazine about the "Myth" of Brand in pipes. Which "proved" that because no one could distinguish ANY Dunhill or Castello from ANY other pipe 100% of the time, there wasn't ANY difference, so people were just buying imagination.

EDITS DUE TO INCOMPETENCE

[Joe Hinkle Pipes]

I Heard this on the local NPR station during lunch. It was kind of sad to hear the violin makers comments near the end, although I somehow doubt it will have much impact on the sale of million dollar violins. As far as "sizzle" I am somewhat disappointed when I open A box from another pipemaker and realize the only thing in the box is a pipe wrapped in bubble wrap.
No pipe sock, no letter, no tobacco sample, no keychain or business card. This is fine because I dont buy super high grade pipes. I would be seriously disappointed if it was A $500 -$1000 pipe. but thats just me. Its like A little wink that says "here is something extra for you, I dont do this for everyone." Everyone wants to feel special, even if they aren't.

[Yak]

Sas : it may be the same smoke, chemically, but after the char light, it tastes different in yours. Better.

There are two other pipes that happens in -- a year one Ascorti-Radice Caminetto, and an early Lane era Charatan Special. Those three are segregated at one end of one rack and get ONLY Union Square. The rest of them are pretty much dedicated to Embarcadero, to FVF, &c. And right good pipes they are, too. Distinctly, consistently, reliably good. Flavorful.

But yours & the pother two are in a class by themselves.

IMO

[Sasquatch]

Yeah.... I know. And every time I post saying that briar is briar and smoke is smoke, a little voice in my head says "Liar!"

That wood in your pipe gets off the charts reviews from basically everyone, and after 100 smokes... same thing. But this is a case where you have excellent materials and hopefully excellent execution of construction, and the result is an "instrument" that you like.

The D-28 sounds amazing. My buddy played it, said "Holy shit." and he's got a rare-run Martin himself. It is what it is. But... on eBay... his would fetch more because.... it's rare!

[sam a]

horse puckey

Woah... Language, big fella.

[Sasquatch]

Sorry Sam.


I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.
I will not fucking swear so much.

Can I go now bitch?

[sam a]

Better... See how nice you sound when you talk like a gentleman?

[LatakiaLover]

Sigh

People have been doing A/B tests like that since at least 1875. And they always run to the newspapers & magazines to announce their discoveries to the world. The modern guy's instruments are 80% of the time better than the old ones (the remaining 20% about tied with them).

People in the instrument trade laugh at them.

For one thing, sound on a stage is one thing. After Fodor won the Tchaikovsky Competition & had the backing $ to buy whatever violin he wanted, the guys in Philadelphia talked him into buying a new Peresson in preference to an old Del Gesu. On the stage of the Academy of Music it sounded bigger, fuller, more even & ballsier. What he didn't know was that the sound of an average fiddle starts choking & dying past the end of the stage -- it doesn't project. The old one, problems and all, does, the way you can hear a softly struck triangle through an orchestra playing fff. (As confirmed -- as if basic 101 stuff like this needed to be -- by comparing what he sounded like when I was on stage with him against hearing him from the audience in a hall).

There is even the matter of even good players taking years to learn how to get the best out of an instrument. Case in point, when Yo Yo Ma had just gotten the Davidoff Strad. They broadcasted him playing the second movement of the Brahms Sonata Op. 108 on it with Costanzelina Rice at the White House (why who knows). He sounded like shit on it -- he was used to his Motagnana, which takes a completely different approach. (When Piatigorsky got the Batta Strad, he woodshedded with it for two years before he took it out in public. Called it his honeymoon).

The whole thing is complex, but it's pretty well understood by people familiar with it from long experience. What it doesn't do is reduce to a simplistic comparison made by people lacking the ability to evaluate the whole from playing/hearing the part. Sounds probably pretty obnoxiously snotty, but there IS a reason why a guy just paid Fein about $14,000,000 for the ex Vieuxtemps Del Gesu.

It's not too unlike the similar piece in the pipe collector's magazine about the "Myth" of Brand in pipes. Which "proved" that because no one could distinguish ANY Dunhill or Castello from ANY other pipe 100% of the time, there wasn't ANY difference, so people were just buying imagination.

EDITS DUE TO INCOMPETENCE

^^^^ Lots of esoteric straw-grasping going on here. Sounds like confirmation bias-based pushback to me.

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve ... _bias.html

[RadDavis]

I can't stand it when anyone begins a post with, "Sigh"

Very condescending and pretty fucking obnoxious.

Rad

[Yak]

Sigh

Same shit, different day. Ever since what they are pleased to style "the Enlightenment," the empiricists have been cocksure that all they needed to do was show up with their little bag of tricks in order to get to the bottom of any great problem in human affairs. That attitude survives (as the lead post shows) despite 250 years of less than impressive results.

In the realm of stringed instruments, they keep announcing to the world that it's been WRONG for all these centuries, and they're RIGHT. But nobody who matters takes them seriously. And I mean ANYWHERE.

Here's your confirmation -- biased or not :

A copy of the c.1731 'Gibson', 'Huberman' Guarneri 'del Gesù' violin has set a new world auction record for an instrument by a living maker.

The copy (pictured), made by US luthiers Joseph Curtin and Gregg Alf in 1985 for Ruggiero Ricci, sold at Tarisio in New York for $132,000 (including buyer's premium). The previous record was $130,000, for a violin by Sam Zygmuntowicz, which sold at Tarisio in May 2003.

http://thestrad.com/latest/news/guarner ... rary-maker

The MacDonald Stradivari viola just sold for $45,000,000.00.

http://kurier.at/politik/ausland/usa-st ... 61.457.653

You coulda saved that guy a lot of money ! [/sarcasm]

[LatakiaLover]

I can't stand it when anyone begins a post with, "Sigh"

But... what if he was addressing someone named Sighmonique, the same way people call you Rad when your full name is Radnificus? You know, a nickname.

[LatakiaLover]

Sigh

Same shit, different day. Ever since what they are pleased to style "the Enlightenment," the empiricists have been cocksure that all they needed to do was show up with their little bag of tricks in order to get to the bottom of any great problem in human affairs. That attitude survives (as the lead post shows) despite 250 years of less than impressive results.

In the realm of stringed instruments, they keep announcing to the world that it's been WRONG for all these centuries, and they're RIGHT. But nobody who matters takes them seriously. And I mean ANYWHERE.

Here's your confirmation -- biased or not :

A copy of the c.1731 'Gibson', 'Huberman' Guarneri 'del Gesù' violin has set a new world auction record for an instrument by a living maker.

The copy (pictured), made by US luthiers Joseph Curtin and Gregg Alf in 1985 for Ruggiero Ricci, sold at Tarisio in New York for $132,000 (including buyer's premium). The previous record was $130,000, for a violin by Sam Zygmuntowicz, which sold at Tarisio in May 2003.

http://thestrad.com/latest/news/guarner ... rary-maker

The MacDonald Stradivari viola just sold for $45,000,000.00.

http://kurier.at/politik/ausland/usa-st ... 61.457.653

You coulda saved that guy a lot of money ! [/sarcasm]

You'd make a lousy defense attorney, Yak. You keep making the opposition's case.

[Sasquatch]

Here's a goddam fact you can take to the bank.

Peretti's make some kick ass fucking tobacco. I mean, these guys have their shit together big time.

[E.L.Cooley]

Missed you sas.
Seems you've been busy.


Sent from my banana phone.

[RadDavis]

Here's a goddam fact you can take to the bank.

Peretti's make some kick ass fucking tobacco. I mean, these guys have their shit together big time.

Fuckin' A, Squatch!! And Yak wants to talk about stringed instruments on pipe making forum!

On second thought, I'm not sure about ass fucking tobacco. Actually, I'm sure I don't want any of that.

Rad

[BobR]

"But how much of the Stradivarius' appeal is about the sound of the instrument, and how much is about the brand"

The author is clearly in "brand is everything" camp. Ok, I get it.

I do find it interesting that after many many years of proven superiority, the Strad was found to be no better than a new violin (probably a very expensive new violin). This implies that all the virtuoso players since the 1680's were not that great. Amateurs. They were all just buying a brand. They really didn't have an ear for music. Hmmm?

IAWY

[LatakiaLover]

I do find it interesting that after many many years of proven superiority, the Strad was found to be no better than a new violin (probably a very expensive new violin). This implies that all the virtuoso players since the 1680's were not that great. Amateurs. They were all just buying a brand. They really didn't have an ear for music. Hmmm?

It wouldn't imply that at all. There's little doubt that the best players of the time (for the most part) played the best instruments of the time.

What happened, I suspect, is that centuries of a few makes being known as the best elevated those makes to near-mythical status, and human nature did the rest.

A pipe parallel would be Dunhill. The reputation they gained in their peak 50 years carried them through the next 40 years quite handily, even thought their own quality was declining at the same time other brands appeared that were better than Dunhill ever was.