Importance of making pipes with the repairman in mind

[Sasquatch]

I thought he was talking about the little piece that gets scraped out on the outside shoulder of the mortise when you drill a real bent pipe. I'll take a picture later. I guess functionally, if either end of the mortise is chiselled out, it could cause this. But George is seeing 50 year old pipes that haven't been touched since 1973 as well, and of course, people don't not smoke our pipes!

[Nate]

I thought he was talking about the little piece that gets scraped out on the outside shoulder of the mortise when you drill a real bent pipe. I'll take a picture later. I guess functionally, if either end of the mortise is chiselled out, it could cause this. But George is seeing 50 year old pipes that haven't been touched since 1973 as well, and of course, people don't not smoke our pipes!

I don't think that's an issue, although it may be. When I spoke with him about it separately, he made it seem like the ramp internally was the culprit, not the little divot on at the exterior of the mortise opening. I could perhaps be wrong though.

[baweaverpipes]

Apologies Tyler, but what a silly question.
If you feel confident in your abilities, why every worry about the repairman?
Crafting a pipe with the repairman in mind, means you make a poorly executed pipe.
I've NEVER given it a thought.

[WCannoy]

Keeping the repairman in mind, every pipe I sell comes with this handmade note:



That is the extent of consideration that I give to the repairman...

[scotties22]

I thought he was talking about the little piece that gets scraped out on the outside shoulder of the mortise when you drill a real bent pipe. I'll take a picture later. I guess functionally, if either end of the mortise is chiselled out, it could cause this. But George is seeing 50 year old pipes that haven't been touched since 1973 as well, and of course, people don't not smoke our pipes!

I don't think that's an issue, although it may be. When I spoke with him about it separately, he made it seem like the ramp internally was the culprit, not the little divot on at the exterior of the mortise opening. I could perhaps be wrong though.

You guys got me al curious so I called George to clarify. Most of the time the divot at the bottom of the mortise is the culprit. Even if the stem is removed and the pipe cleaned periodically, over time the tenon will still trumpet into the void due to heat buildup. Once that happens the stem is "locked" into place and cannot be twisted or pulled out. He says he sees this quite often.

He also said that some times the tenon will swell (slightly) into the notch at the top of the mortise. Normally this happens with smaller diameter tenons. When this happens if the stem is twisted out instead of pulled straight out it is highly likey that the few extra thousands of material that has bulged out is enough to crack the shank as it moves back into the "round" part of the mortise.

Hope this helps

[Joe Hinkle Pipes]

So we were both sort of right nate. Team king solomon FTW.

[JMG]

Sorry, I'm a dummy...is the notch the divot left at the end of the mortise left by the drill bit because it was angled so much?

How much gap should there be between the mortise floor and tenon?

The notch being referred to is inside the mortise. Because of drilling angles, the airway intersects the bottom (inside front) of the mortise, usually towards the top of the mortise, thus being off center. That will not work because the center of the stem's tenon is still in the center. Therefore one must 'ramp' or notch the airway to bring the airway back to center.

The gap should be small, something like .010".

So, is this acceptable in the "pipe maker's world"? If so, it would make my life much easier. I've forgone a shape attempt or two b/c I knew that would be an issue.

[Sasquatch]

There's other solutions, and certain makers won't ramp, but those of us who are making 80 degree Oom Pauls frequently... we ramp.

[LatakiaLover]

After Scottie's call I wanted to see what the fuss was about, so read the thread and would like to clarify a few things.

Something she left out regarding "bottom of mortise" airway notches is the wall thickness (diameter) of the the tenon is related to the shape-change issue. The thinner it is, the more likely it is to trumpet into the notch. Also, the shorter the airway to the tobacco chamber, the more likely the tenon will trumpet because of heat and tars (Tars soften vulcanite over time)

This is not speculation. I see it a lot.

Airway drill-clearance divots on the other end of the mortise are OK as long as they aren't terribly long or deep AND not filled with rod after drilling. If filled, the airway can't later be reamed with a drill bit, and solvent-resistant build-up is 100% guaranteed. Again, this is not speculation. It's what I do.

Also---though it's not nearly as common as trumpeting at the other end---a thin-walled tenon can still "balloon" over time into the void enough to cause the shank to crack if the stem is removed with a twisting motion.

Ignoring and/or disregarding this stuff is a potential time bomb for new makers because the problems take several years to manifest themselves, meaning by the time the feedback starts rolling in there are a lot of pipes out there with your name on them.

btw, I think Bruce inverted his wording a bit. Thinking about this stuff doesn't mean you make bad pipes, it means you will avoid making certain designs that are prone to problems.

-----

Regarding Scottie saying I designed her little clay-briars, I want to set the record straight while I'm here. She gives herself far too little credit, I think.

We were talking on the phone about using ss tubing for tenons, and she asked if a metal airway affected a pipe's taste. I told her I'd spliced a bushel basket of famous-name teeny-shank cuttys and cherrywoods by sleeving them their entire length with ss tubing, and had never heard back from anyone that it caused problems of any sort. Then, I said, "You know, if I were a maker, I'd use an ss liner pre-emptively on everything I made that had a slender shank. Statistically it would be certain to save some pipes from breakage down the road, and there is no downside."

"Wow," said Scottie, "Not only that, but there'd be no limit how thin you could make a shank, would there?"

"Not really... as long as there was enough wood to cover the metal."

"I really like those little white clays that Mike and Mary McNeil use for testing. Would it be possible to make a briar pipe that small using an ss-lined shank, do you think?" She asked.

"No reason why not that I can see," I said. "But you'll have to figure it out. I only fix 'em. There might be some tricky heel / bowl proportion stuff to deal with because if the tube doesn't extend INTO the bowl, it might as well not be there. Those [insert famous name]'s cuttys and cherrywoods snap off at the bowl a lot more often than farther up the shank. But other than that, you should have an open field, design-wise."

[pause on the line while she considered the idea]

"So... Why don't you see if you can figure it out and make one that works?" I said. "Betcha can't. You are, after all, only a grrrl."

And that was it. I had no further involvement with their development or production in any way. It was just a brainstorm tidbit that fell out of my mouth while discussing metal tenons, followed by a challenge.

[JMG]

George, do you see the swelling and becoming stuck problem more with integral tenons vs delrin or is there a difference?

[Tyler]

After Scottie's call I wanted to see what the fuss was about, so read the thread and would like to clarify a few things.

Something she left out regarding "bottom of mortise" airway notches is the wall thickness (diameter) of the the tenon is related to the shape-change issue. The thinner it is, the more likely it is to trumpet into the notch. Also, the shorter the airway to the tobacco chamber, the more likely the tenon will trumpet because of heat and tars (Tars soften vulcanite over time)

This is not speculation. I see it a lot.

Airway drill-clearance divots on the other end of the mortise are OK as long as they aren't terribly long or deep AND not filled with rod after drilling. If filled, the airway can't later be reamed with a drill bit, and solvent-resistant build-up is 100% guaranteed. Again, this is not speculation. It's what I do.

Also---though it's not nearly as common as trumpeting at the other end---a thin-walled tenon can still "balloon" over time into the void enough to cause the shank to crack if the stem is removed with a twisting motion.

Ignoring and/or disregarding this stuff is a potential time bomb for new makers because the problems take several years to manifest themselves, meaning by the time the feedback starts rolling in there are a lot of pipes out there with your name on them.

btw, I think Bruce inverted his wording a bit. Thinking about this stuff doesn't mean you make bad pipes, it means you will avoid making certain designs that are prone to problems.

-----

Regarding Scottie saying I designed her little clay-briars, I want to set the record straight while I'm here. She gives herself far too little credit, I think.

We were talking on the phone about using ss tubing for tenons, and she asked if a metal airway affected a pipe's taste. I told her I'd spliced a bushel basket of famous-name teeny-shank cuttys and cherrywoods by sleeving them their entire length with ss tubing, and had never heard back from anyone that it caused problems of any sort. Then, I said, "You know, if I were a maker, I'd use an ss liner pre-emptively on everything I made that had a slender shank. Statistically it would be certain to save some pipes from breakage down the road, and there is no downside."

"Wow," said Scottie, "Not only that, but there'd be no limit how thin you could make a shank, would there?"

"Not really... as long as there was enough wood to cover the metal."

"I really like those little white clays that Mike and Mary McNeil use for testing. Would it be possible to make a briar pipe that small using an ss-lined shank, do you think?" She asked.

"No reason why not that I can see," I said. "But you'll have to figure it out. I only fix 'em. There might be some tricky heel / bowl proportion stuff to deal with because if the tube doesn't extend INTO the bowl, it might as well not be there. Those [insert famous name]'s cuttys and cherrywoods snap off at the bowl a lot more often than farther up the shank. But other than that, you should have an open field, design-wise."

[pause on the line while she considered the idea]

"So... Why don't you see if you can figure it out and make one that works?" I said. "Betcha can't. You are, after all, only a grrrl."

And that was it. I had no further involvement with their development or production in any way. It was just a brainstorm tidbit that fell out of my mouth while discussing metal tenons, followed by a challenge.

I knew I could chase you out of the weeds.

[Tyler]

Apologies Tyler, but what a silly question.
If you feel confident in your abilities, why every worry about the repairman?
Crafting a pipe with the repairman in mind, means you make a poorly executed pipe.
I've NEVER given it a thought.

Well hey you old grumpus, why don't you start a better, more interesting thread then.

Actually, I basically agree with you. My reason for bringing this up is because I think some people limit themselves because they are too worried about the repairman. I don't. I take a fine-china-over-paper-plate view. You can't break paper plates, but you don't cherish your grandma's paper plates either. I've made some very fragile pipes. So what? Good care will still result in a life-lasting pleasure provider. You drop it, and it's over. Thems the breaks in life. Key-hole-stuck tenon? Sorry, I just don't care. I'm not sacrificing beautiful bent pipes because someone might buy one of my pipes and not remove the stem for 25 years. That's not on me.

So I'm with you grumpus. My goal is to make beautiful instruments that smoke like a dream, not bullet proof tobacco holders.

[LatakiaLover]

I knew I could chase you out of the weeds.

Actually, it was what Scottie said. I just wanted to set the record straight.

[LatakiaLover]

My goal is to make beautiful instruments that smoke like a dream, not bullet proof tobacco holders.

You are trying to imply those attributes are mutually exclusive. They are not.

[Tyler]

My goal is to make beautiful instruments that smoke like a dream, not bullet proof tobacco holders.

You are trying to imply those attributes are mutually exclusive. They are not.

Sometimes they are.

[Nate]

So we were both sort of right nate. Team king solomon FTW.

You know it!!!

[LatakiaLover]

My goal is to make beautiful instruments that smoke like a dream, not bullet proof tobacco holders.

You are trying to imply those attributes are mutually exclusive. They are not.

Sometimes they are.

That sort of conclusion is the result of either laziness, rationalization, denial, or ignorance. ANY design can be made more or less mechanically durable depending on a number of small choices. It is bad practice to not choose the best options a design will allow, or not dismiss the design altogether (or modify it) if the sum of those best options still yields an unacceptable result.

Scottie's skinny pipes are a good example. They could be made without the ss liner and with a standard push-fit tenon, but they shouldn't be. Another example would be a stem with an overly-large-diameter, overly short tenon mated to a thin shank. Such designs explode the shank when dropped (a difficult repair that almost always alters the appearance of the pipe) instead of simply snap the tenon off cleanly, shear pin-style (which is a cheap, easy, and invisible fix).

Not avoiding the "keyway lockup" problem is exactly the same sort of thing, just less likely to bite back and take a while to do so.

Something to consider: There's obviously nothing in discussing this topic for me. If you guys incorporated the longevity/repair perspective in your designs as a rule, I would have little work. I'm passing it on simply out of my love of doing things right, whatever they might be, pipes or otherwise. As part of my Pursuit of Perfection, I suppose.

[Joe Hinkle Pipes]

Love the wall of text. Its good to hear from you again George.

[baweaverpipes]

Apologies Tyler, but what a silly question.
If you feel confident in your abilities, why every worry about the repairman?
Crafting a pipe with the repairman in mind, means you make a poorly executed pipe.
I've NEVER given it a thought.

Well hey you old grumpus, why don't you start a better, more interesting thread then.

Actually, I basically agree with you. My reason for bringing this up is because I think some people limit themselves because they are too worried about the repairman. I don't. I take a fine-china-over-paper-plate view. You can't break paper plates, but you don't cherish your grandma's paper plates either. I've made some very fragile pipes. So what? Good care will still result in a life-lasting pleasure provider. You drop it, and it's over. Thems the breaks in life. Key-hole-stuck tenon? Sorry, I just don't care. I'm not sacrificing beautiful bent pipes because someone might buy one of my pipes and not remove the stem for 25 years. That's not on me.

So I'm with you grumpus. My goal is to make beautiful instruments that smoke like a dream, not bullet proof tobacco holders.

I'm hurt, Tyler!
I thought I was a curmudgeon and now find I'm a old grumpus!

[wdteipen]

Apologies Tyler, but what a silly question.
If you feel confident in your abilities, why every worry about the repairman?
Crafting a pipe with the repairman in mind, means you make a poorly executed pipe.
I've NEVER given it a thought.

Well hey you old grumpus, why don't you start a better, more interesting thread then.

Actually, I basically agree with you. My reason for bringing this up is because I think some people limit themselves because they are too worried about the repairman. I don't. I take a fine-china-over-paper-plate view. You can't break paper plates, but you don't cherish your grandma's paper plates either. I've made some very fragile pipes. So what? Good care will still result in a life-lasting pleasure provider. You drop it, and it's over. Thems the breaks in life. Key-hole-stuck tenon? Sorry, I just don't care. I'm not sacrificing beautiful bent pipes because someone might buy one of my pipes and not remove the stem for 25 years. That's not on me.

So I'm with you grumpus. My goal is to make beautiful instruments that smoke like a dream, not bullet proof tobacco holders.

I'm hurt, Tyler!
I thought I was a curmudgeon and now find I'm a old grumpus!

I think you graduated when you had grandkids.