KurtHuhn wrote:Go ahead, I'll wait for you to recover...
Wait! WAIT! I need more time!
OK, I've recovered. It's just as well you explained that you power it all the way. I envisioned myself ending up looking like one of those old farts that spend their days sitting pulling at slot machines with one withered little arm and the other arm looking like it was borrowed from Terminator Arnold.
Drat. I should have asked you sooner. I just received my Abralon disks from McM-C, but I stopped at 500 grit.
Regards,
Frank.
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Grouch Happens!
People usually get the gods they deserve - Terry Pratchett
I finish at 400-600 grit.. done properly no scraches will be be left at 400 above that you are just polishing your pipe wich is better done on a polishing wheel..
Getting a shiny surface on a pipe to stay for long is tricky buisness as bouth heat from smoking and handeling will work against that.. and IMO putting a washcoat of some laquer or varnish before using wax will help it to stay shiny longer...wax in itself is a poor finish and very heat sensetive and wears off quick...If you take a peice of briar sand it up to 20000 grit and inspect it in strong magnification you would still see tiny little holes everywhere so small that the eye can not detect them alone.that is the nature of wood..
One thing I've learned when it comes to pipes is that its the result that matters while most customers care less how you got there, and as long as no one will give you cred or extra cash for sanding your pipe to 15000 grit and the end result is the same what would be the reason that time is better spent on other details that will enhance the final product.
If you have ever held an Eltang and and concluded that he must have sanded the pipe to a trillon grit to get that shine so is not the case 400 is more clouse..
A good book on finishing wood is Bob flexners: understanding wood finishing as there are so many missaprehensions in this feild...this book coveres the finishing of furniture mostly but there are many good tips that can be applied to pipes and for anyone intrested in learning more in the feild I would recommend getting it
Briarfox, I think your buffing wheel is overloaded with the wax. Rake it almost clean and apply just a touch o wax to the wheel. See how that works. Have you ever noticed using compounds while buffing that you get a build up of compound on the pipe in sections? You don't really want build up with compound or wax. If you get wax lumps stuck on the pipe and spread them, you'll get blotches.
Rad, Abralon is a micromesh.
I sand to 600, stain, then sand with 600 again to even stain, repeat, etc, then go through the compounds - black emery to remove minor minor 600 grit scratches, then tripoli, then white diamond. I haven't used shellac yet, but the compounds keep the stain "depth" even and keep me from "balding" an area by over sanding. I've used Abralon up to 1000 grit for finishing, but I couldn't tell the difference from sanding to 600 and going through the full compound routine, even under the jewelers glass. It shines all glossy before applying a light wax finish.
Kurt... are you using the Woodcraft foam backing pads in conjunction with the Abralon discs when you do your finish sanding? I'm asking because when I try to use my Woodcraft foam pads and higher grits of the standard wave discs for finish sanding, it doesn't really work too well. Even the cooshiest(????) pad attachment still leaves uneven areas and I find I"m better served past a certain point to hand-sand everything up to the finish. Does the abralon conform more to the shape of the pipe and help keep those uneven areas from occuring while finish sanding?
I was talking with Premal a long while back, after I read that a high grade maker had said in an article that he sanded to 1500 grit. All of the opinions here on the forums at the time were that sanding above 600 was pretty much overkill. Premal said that he knew the maker was using micromesh and said that the grit numbers were not the same as regular sand paper.
He told me that 1500 grit micromesh was about the same as 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper.
But micromesh is supposed to leave a shallower/different scratch pattern, according to the manufacturer. They call it the non-abrasive abrasive.
Thanks for the feedback guys. kbadkar, You may have it it right on. I don't have a rake and have never cleaned the wheels. I have over a bar of carnuba into it.
I sand to 800 grit and for the most part all grit marks are out, so I don't believe that is the issue.
geigerpipes, what do you use for your spit coat of laquer?
I'm starting to think that I don't have that much wax on and that when the pipe is handled and even smoked hot, then the wax comes off.
I just see some awesome glassy shines, much of which my pipe look like when I finish with the white diamond. I just want it to stay that shinny!
Are you talking micro-mesh grit or regular old sandpaper grit?
Regular old sandpaper grit, using Abralon pads.
Obviously, that's not the only thing I do, and Love hit on part of it.
But, like I said, this is what I've found works for me. It might not make any sense to anyone else, and might seem like folly, but that's okay. I'm comfortable in my folly.
That said, I'm constantly looking for new and better ways to do the finishing step. And, based on some new info, will be experimenting soon. I may come back on this message in year and think to myself "You dummy. 2000 grit is a waste of time.", so don't hold me to any of it.
It's actually not. Abralon is a different product altogether. The abrasive is similar (silcon carbide) but the grit specs are much different. Abralon uses the US CAMI grit spec, while Micro-Mesh is way out in left field with it's own grit spec that I haven't quite figured out.
hazmat wrote:Kurt... are you using the Woodcraft foam backing pads in conjunction with the Abralon discs when you do your finish sanding?
No, the Abralon pads have more than enough cushion in them. They've got something like 3/16" or 1/4" of foam backing which is more than enough.
I'm asking because when I try to use my Woodcraft foam pads and higher grits of the standard wave discs for finish sanding, it doesn't really work too well. Even the cooshiest(????) pad attachment still leaves uneven areas and I find I"m better served past a certain point to hand-sand everything up to the finish. Does the abralon conform more to the shape of the pipe and help keep those uneven areas from occuring while finish sanding?
That's not surprising. The wave discs use a traditional abrasive. I'm not 100% certain of it's makeup, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that it's aluminum oxide. Also, using the big,thick backing pad on a small wheel like the Wave discs use really limits where you can get that paper into. Places like the shank/bowl junction, the rim of the bowl, and anything with sharp bends will be difficult to do right.
KurtHuhn wrote:
That's not surprising. The wave discs use a traditional abrasive. I'm not 100% certain of it's makeup, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that it's aluminum oxide. Also, using the big,thick backing pad on a small wheel like the Wave discs use really limits where you can get that paper into. Places like the shank/bowl junction, the rim of the bowl, and anything with sharp bends will be difficult to do right.
That's why I hand-finish most everything and it's a pain in my giblets, as necessary as it happens to be. I'm going to have to finally drop the cash on some Abralon and see if it makes finish sanding easier on me at all.
Are you using Abralon only for finish sanding or can it be utilized for shape tweaking as well? This is another area the wave discs seem to be lacking in. With none of the backing attachments, it's a bit too hard and with any of the attachments I can't get into the smaller areas well.
RadDavis wrote:He told me that 1500 grit micromesh was about the same as 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper.
But micromesh is supposed to leave a shallower/different scratch pattern, according to the manufacturer. They call it the non-abrasive abrasive.
Having used all kinds in my quest for a better finish (abralon, abranet, micro-mesh regular and MX, etc, etc, etc). I'm of the opinion that abrasives that use silicon carbide are the way to go for pipe makers.
If you look at aluminum oxide, the shape of the crystals is very angular, like tons of tiny pyramids. Silicon carbide, on the other hand, has a more cubic structure, with lots of flat faces. The difference is the type of scratch pattern produced. Aluminum oxide will make lots of deep angular scratches, while the silicon carbide "scrapes" the surface clean with it's flat edges.
hazmat wrote:
Are you using Abralon only for finish sanding or can it be utilized for shape tweaking as well? This is another area the wave discs seem to be lacking in. With none of the backing attachments, it's a bit too hard and with any of the attachments I can't get into the smaller areas well.
I rough shape on the belt grinder, and fine tune with a combo regular disc with foam backing pad and a dremel with structured carbide bits. Once that's done, I switch to Abralon and use it until the pipe is done.
I don't use brown compound very much at all. I use it on stems, but only very lightly on the wood if ever. I sometimes skip the tripoli altogether and move right into white diamond.
Briarfox wrote:You may have it it right on. I don't have a rake and have never cleaned the wheels. I have over a bar of carnuba into it.
Holy Crap! I've polished literally dozens of pipes and still have 3/4 of a bar of carnauba left. You're putting way too much wax on the wheel.
heh now you guys tell me I felt that since it didn't keep the wax then it needed MORE! I got a new bar alst week and have already used 10% on 3 pipes...
So that may be my problem, I'll rake it and see how it works out.
Briarfox wrote:heh now you guys tell me I felt that since it didn't keep the wax then it needed MORE! I got a new bar alst week and have already used 10% on 3 pipes...
So that may be my problem, I'll rake it and see how it works out.
Firstly, the raking. Personally, I don't like to use a metal rake on wheels not intended for buffing metal. The rake can have a tendency to make the wheel grey and transfer it to the wood. I prefer to use a very coarse sandpaper, 24 or 36 grit, to remove old compound.
Now, we need to establish how you're applying your wax. It sounds as if you're using a stitched cotton wheel to apply the wax, otherwise I cannot fathom how you could use up that much wax. You have to use a loose (unstitched) flannel wheel. Just a 1 second touch of the wax bar to the wheel is sufficient. It doesn't matter how hard you lean into the wheel applying the wax to it, because it's so soft & loose, and the wax is so hard, the wheel will only accept a small amount of wax. You then just lightly touch the pipe to the wheel to transfer the wax to the pipe.
Regards,
Frank.
------------------
Grouch Happens!
People usually get the gods they deserve - Terry Pratchett
Briarfox wrote:heh now you guys tell me I felt that since it didn't keep the wax then it needed MORE! I got a new bar alst week and have already used 10% on 3 pipes...
So that may be my problem, I'll rake it and see how it works out.
Firstly, the raking. Personally, I don't like to use a metal rake on wheels not intended for buffing metal. The rake can have a tendency to make the wheel grey and transfer it to the wood. I prefer to use a very coarse sandpaper, 24 or 36 grit, to remove old compound.
Now, we need to establish how you're applying your wax. It sounds as if you're using a stitched cotton wheel to apply the wax, otherwise I cannot fathom how you could use up that much wax. You have to use a loose (unstitched) flannel wheel. Just a 1 second touch of the wax bar to the wheel is sufficient. It doesn't matter how hard you lean into the wheel applying the wax to it, because it's so soft & loose, and the wax is so hard, the wheel will only accept a small amount of wax. You then just lightly touch the pipe to the wheel to transfer the wax to the pipe.
I'm not really sure what kind of wheel I'm using. It came in a buff kit from woodcraft. It's an 8" wheel and it's only stitched at the bottom. However, it seems to be more course then my WD and trip wheels. It also has a lot of loose strings on the end...
Yeah I exceeded a 1 sec touch. I'd hold the bar in until I could smell carnuba and notice a divot taken out of the bar. I didn't realized that a quick touch would transfer enough wax, since it's so hard...
Thanks for the input guys, the information you guys provide really helps new pipe makers. I appreciate it a lot.
I felt that since it didn't keep the wax then it needed MORE! I got a new bar alst week and have already used 10% on 3 pipes...
