How much time do you spend on the stem?

[Mike Messer]

You should know, Bruce, Rad, and all, I was just being polite, and trying to avoid an argument because I wasn't in the mood to tangle at the moment, (I was watching the doc on PBS about the two orphaned cheeta cubs) but all you guys are just glorified pipe manufacturing businesses, counting your time and money and thinking that making a professional (manufactured looking) pipe is state-of-the-art, but it ain't, and you just can't comprehend greatness when you see it.

[RadDavis]

It took you two days to come up with THAT!!??

Bless your heart. That's just sad.

Rad

[Mike Messer]

It took you two days to come up with THAT!!??

Bless your heart. That's just sad.

Rad

Okay, Rad, you asked for it...Just (very carefully) read the article about Teddy Knudsen in the Fall 2011 edition of "Pipes And Tobaccos" magazine. I just got mine today. You got yours yet?

[Mike Messer]

It took you two days to come up with THAT!!??

Bless your heart. That's just sad.

Rad

For the record, I'm not challenging your work methods. It's great and you produce a ton of work, like Picasso did paintings, but there are different approaches which are also valid.
To confirm this, just read the "Pipes And Tobaccos" Fall 2011 edition, the article about Teddy Knudsen. I'm not saying I'm as good Teddy Knudsen, no way, but we have similar ideas about methods.

[Mike Messer]

It took you two days to come up with THAT!!??

Bless your heart. That's just sad.

Rad

This is my third reply. I edited the first one, and it disappeared. The second one never appeared, so, okay...I'll keep on trying.

I don't really think, "you guys are just glorified pipe manufacturing businesses," I was just, how do you say, "giving you shit."
But even if you were, there would be no disgrace in that. Pipe manufactures are some of the most legitimate enterprises around, and make some very nice pipes.
I guess you are saying that I need better writers for my, "shit."

But Seriously, on the topic of time spent making pipes, be sure to read the article, "Unhurried Excellence" in the Fall 2011 edition of "Pipes And Tobaccos" magazine.
It's about Teddy Knudsen's (current) approach to pipemaking.
There are many fine points in the article. I am just copying a few of the simple points here.
(quotes from the article for review) "In the 70's, I made between 200 and 250 pipes a year. When I made so many pipes, I didn't have time for doing my best work."
"I sometimes use two days just to find out what to do with the block... On some pipes I've spent four days just to find the right lines in the piece of wood. This one will take me 10 days at least to finish the pipe."
"He predicts that he won't go back to making more than 20 or 30 pipes a year, preferring instead to relax and let both his conscious and subconscious mind work on what to do next on each pipe."

[RadDavis]

It took you two days to come up with THAT!!??

Bless your heart. That's just sad.

Rad

This is my third reply. I edited the first one, and it disappeared. The second one never appeared, so, okay...I'll keep on trying.

I don't really think, "you guys are just glorified pipe manufacturing businesses," I was just, how do you say, "giving you shit."
But even if you were, there would be no disgrace in that. Pipe manufactures are some of the most legitimate enterprises around, and make some very nice pipes.
I guess you are saying that I need better writers for my, "shit."

But Seriously, on the topic of time spent making pipes, be sure to read the article, "Unhurried Excellence" in the Fall 2011 edition of "Pipes And Tobaccos" magazine.
It's about Teddy Knudsen's (current) approach to pipemaking.
There are many fine points in the article. I am just copying a few of the simple points here.
(quotes from the article for review) "In the 70's, I made between 200 and 250 pipes a year. When I made so many pipes, I didn't have time for doing my best work."
"I sometimes use two days just to find out what to do with the block... On some pipes I've spent four days just to find the right lines in the piece of wood. This one will take me 10 days at least to finish the pipe."
"He predicts that he won't go back to making more than 20 or 30 pipes a year, preferring instead to relax and let both his conscious and subconscious mind work on what to do next on each pipe."

I read that. The key word in the title is "Excellence". Your pipes ain't it.

Teddy has been making pipes his entire life and has EARNED the position he is in to be able to do what he does, because he worked his ass off, and he has a shitload of talent.

You seem to gloss over the significance of his making "between 200 and 250 pipes a year" in the 70s. This is how he got good. This is how everybody who's good gets good. You are not good yet. You're not even decent yet. You're pipes are merely ok, and it's clear that you could probably get good if you worked at it, but you're not going to get any better making 5-10 pipes a year, hoping to sell them for thousands of dollars.

Like I said, you're going about this all backwards and shit.

And don't be a condescending prick. It's unbecoming.

Rad

[Mike Messer]

I read that. The key word in the title is "Excellence". Your pipes ain't it.

Teddy has been making pipes his entire life and has EARNED the position he is in to be able to do what he does, because he worked his ass off, and he has a shitload of talent.

You seem to gloss over the significance of his making "between 200 and 250 pipes a year" in the 70s. This is how he got good. This is how everybody who's good gets good. You are not good yet. You're not even decent yet. You're pipes are merely ok, and it's clear that you could probably get good if you worked at it, but you're not going to get any better making 5-10 pipes a year, hoping to sell them for thousands of dollars.

Like I said, you're going about this all backwards and shit.

And don't be a condescending prick. It's unbecoming.

Rad

I was talking about methods. I never meant to imply I was a great pipemaker like Teddy Knudsen, and I also don't think I was being a, "condescending prick."
Hell, Rad, you've got a lock on that.
As for my pipes, that's your, "condescending prick" opinion (no jokeing) .
M.M.

[Alden]

I read that. The key word in the title is "Excellence". Your pipes ain't it.

Teddy has been making pipes his entire life and has EARNED the position he is in to be able to do what he does, because he worked his ass off, and he has a shitload of talent.

You seem to gloss over the significance of his making "between 200 and 250 pipes a year" in the 70s. This is how he got good. This is how everybody who's good gets good. You are not good yet. You're not even decent yet. You're pipes are merely ok, and it's clear that you could probably get good if you worked at it, but you're not going to get any better making 5-10 pipes a year, hoping to sell them for thousands of dollars.

Like I said, you're going about this all backwards and shit.

And don't be a condescending prick. It's unbecoming.

Rad

I was talking about methods. I never meant to imply I was a great pipemaker like Teddy Knudsen, and I also don't think I was being a, "condescending prick."
Hell, Rad, you've got a lock on that.
As for my pipes, that's your, "condescending prick" opinion (no jokeing) .
M.M.

Mike, I think most sane people would agree with Rad on this one. You're not bad, your just not as good as most professional pipemakers.
But, I'm glad you're here because you make me laugh.

[e Markle]

As for my pipes, that's your, "condescending prick" opinion (no jokeing) .
M.M.

I think that the hardest thing about pipe making is being able to see what's wrong with your own pipes. I'm not talking about the pride component, I mean actually being able to identify what separates a serious artist from a really good amateur. And I'm not talking about good engineering - that's a given at this point; I'm speaking more about proportion and flow of lines.

In my own pipe making I've seen a huge improvement in my capacity to see what's wrong with a given shape I produce, but the thing I'm most afraid of is coming to a point where my eye doesn't progress any further. If that happens my progress will effectively stop. There are quite a few pipe makers who do a lot of things very, very well (drilling, finishing, stem work, etc.), but they simply do not have an eye for the artistic side of pipe making.

I don't think Rad's analysis is condescending, unfair or unique. He's made quite a few pipes, and more importantly people BUY his pipes just as fast as he can make them. The market as a whole makes a strong argument for the desirability of his pipes... and for yours (and mine, and each of ours) as well.

[RadDavis]

But even if you were, there would be no disgrace in that. Pipe manufactures are some of the most legitimate enterprises around, and make some very nice pipes.

That statement, right there, is you being a condescending prick.

What I gave you was advice. I did not condescend. I did not tell you that "Oh gee, those are some very nice pipes. They're not very good, but there's no disgrace in that. Some of my best friends make not very good pipes."

I gave you my honest opinion of your pipes. Is that not what you're here for? Or are you happy to be an ignorant dickhead??

Good luck with your stupid pipes. Oh, I'm sorry, your "art".

Rad

[Sasquatch]

There are quite a few pipe makers who do a lot of things very, very well (drilling, finishing, stem work, etc.), but they simply do not have an eye for the artistic side of pipe making.

Okay OKAY I get it already, Ernie. But we aren't all Pablo von Beethoven, okay?

[andrew]

This is nearly as much fun as the "ebonite smell" thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[e Markle]

Okay OKAY I get it already, Ernie. But we aren't all Pablo von Beethoven, okay?

I've been dropping hints for months now Sas; I'm glad you finally took my meaning subtle though it was.

[mredmond]

Ernie, I didn't know you were a deaf, womanizing Spaniard. This changes everything...

[Mike Messer]

Mike, I think most sane people would agree with Rad on this one. You're not bad, your just not as good as most professional pipemakers.
But, I'm glad you're here because you make me laugh.

I think the key word you and some of the other guys are using is, "professional."
"Professional" and "artist" are contradictions in terms, like the old "Army Intelligence" joke, I remember because when I entered West Point, Intelligence was my branch choice.

Footnote: all of us artist-types are a little bit crazy (and a little bit rock 'n' roll).

Glad I make you laugh. It's good to laugh, and not get too serious about some of these "discussions."

[Alden]

Definition of Professional;
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier>
c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

So basically, it means doing something for a living.
Making pipes is an art, so by default any pipemaker is an artist. By arguing that you're not a professional, all you are saying is that you dont make a living at it.

[Mike Messer]

Definition of Professional;
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier>
c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

So basically, it means doing something for a living.
Making pipes is an art, so by default any pipemaker is an artist. By arguing that you're not a professional, all you are saying is that you dont make a living at it.

I think you may have lost your sense of humor.
No problem, so let's get serious....

Inspired to create or inspired to get paid?
Doing it for love or doing it for money?

There's no hard rule (except at the IRS) but especially in this capitalist, commercial world, where practically everything is for sale. The difference can get blurred.

[RadDavis]

Inspired to create or inspired to get paid?

What's wrong with being inspired to do both?

Doing it for love or doing it for money?

There's nothing more satisfying than doing it for both. To make a living doing something you love to do is my idea of bliss.

One does not necessarily exclude the other. Unless you're a "true artist", like yourself.

Of course you do realize that declaring yourself a "true artist" in this sense, with no regard for criticism, is a defense mechanism to justify work that's not really that "artistic" and is way overpriced.

Don't you?

You don't have to explain yourself to anybody. We get it.

Rad

[Massis]

Wait, I'm not following this...

So Mike, you are a true artist because you do it for the love of art, not for the money, yet you charge prices one could buy a small car for?

[Alden]

Inspired to create or inspired to get paid?
Doing it for love or doing it for money?

I dont know but its a good question. I could buy 10 or 15 pipes from other people here for the price of one of yours.
Does that mean you are only doing it for money? Does that mean they are only doing it for money ?
I'm confused.