How much time do you spend on the stem?

[e Markle]

Wait, I'm not following this...

So Mike, you are a true artist because you do it for the love of art, not for the money, yet you charge prices one could buy a small car for?

Not to quip, but I think the term "charge" implies a sale. I think "ask" would fit much better.

[RadDavis]

Not that it's working out real well for him so far, but this is from Mike's site:

Why do I make pipes? Because I enjoy making nice pipes, because pipes are just incredibly cool, and for the money. ... mostly for the money...

Rad

[Alden]

Mike was afraid I'm losing my sense of humor.
He just put that there to make me laugh

[Mike Messer]

Rad's idea about doing it for both, love and money, sounds fine. I've seen a lot of spectacular artists (and craftsmen) do this, I think, but one must be very careful not to let the money affect his judgement and methods in such a way that it compromises the results.
But in favor of money, sometimes when I was a kid I would play poker with some friends whose mummys would not let them play for money. We played with chips, and it wasn't much fun.
Exactly, the, "Mostly For The Money," line was a joke, I got it from Burt Reynolds, from the original "Smokey And The Bandit" movie.
If you see things the way I do, you see that the artist makes the creative decision based on his judgement, which, if he is good, is good. You guys, really don't see what I am doing. I am just beginning to get a clue, myself, and it may or may not work out, but that's what I'm gonna do. Critics be damned.
I've made art for decades, and pipes are just my latest period works. This changes the context of the pipes. They don't stand alone.
I really and truly was not trying to be a "condescending prick," about the pipemaking business. I truly believe they (or you, if applicable) are the best businesses around...still making high quality products, while many other industries, governments even, have conspired and degenerated and now, just try to sell the perception of quality while undermining the reality of it.

[RadDavis]

This line used to be on your site:

The way I work is a factor in my pricing which may seem high, but I spend a lot of time and money on pipemaking and all things considered, and if things go well, no one can say for sure, but in a few years the price may be a few thousand each, instead of a few hundred each.

Was that a joke too? I know you removed it after I explained to you about hubris.

I have to say, you certainly beat your projected time line by a large margin! Congratulations!

The fact that you've been an artist (a painter, apparently) does not mean you can automatically be a pipe maker. And thinking of the pipes you make as a continuation of your body of work and pricing them accordingly is silly. Hell, a few months ago, you couldn't see the difference between a Guidici saddle stem and one that was hand cut by Teddy Knudsen! This doesn't say much for your artistic eye, at least with regard to pipes.

Best of luck though.

Rad

[Mike Messer]

.....

[Mike Messer]

....
[1] The fact that you've been an artist (a painter, apparently) does not mean you can automatically be a pipe maker.
[2] And thinking of the pipes you make as a continuation of your body of work and pricing them accordingly is silly.
[3] Hell, a few months ago, you couldn't see the difference between a Guidici saddle stem and one that was hand cut by Teddy Knudsen! This doesn't say much for your artistic eye, at least with regard to pipes.

[4] Best of luck though.
Rad

[1] I disagree. Developed skills and tooling accelerate one's ability to move into a new medium, but of, course, not automatically. The first year (2009) I did nothing but study pipes, pipemakers, dealers, and pipemaking, and I'm still progressing.

[2] Nothing silly at all about that idea, except your comment.

[3] It was 2 years ago (Sept 2009), not a few months, and the Knudsen - Giudici comparason was not about knowing the difference, but about being able to see real, significant differences in the photos on the internet. My point is that you said you could "SEE" the difference, but I say you can't "SEE" it, you just know it.

[4] I'm sure that's a lie. You're constantly trying to warp things around in an obvious attempt to slander me....

So, back on the topic, you never said how long you spend making a stem.

[KurtHuhn]

[3] It was 2 years ago (Sept 2009), not a few months, and the Knudsen - Giudici comparason was not about knowing the difference, but about being able to see real, significant differences in the photos on the internet. My point is that you said you could "SEE" the difference, but I say you can't "SEE" it, you just know it.

Actually, it's fairly easy for a pipe maker, who has been doing this for a while, to immediately recognize a molded stem. Even in pictures on the Internet. Especially if it's a molded stem that's been fit to a pipe by a relative novice. But this is born of experience, similar to the artistic eye, and without that experience you lack the context for discussion, and can't really argue one way or the other.

To you they look the same. To an experienced eye there are glaring differences.

It's interesting how this thread started with an interesting question, and turned into this. Again.

[RadDavis]

I spend about 45 minutes to an hour on a stem.

Rad

[Tyler]

I spend about 45 minutes to an hour on a stem.

Rad

You should spend longer so there aren't tool marks on the face of the stem.

I hope this helps.

[SimeonTurner]

I like tool marks on my stem. It's my art. If you think my art isn't art, you're a fuckhead.

Someday I will achieve my masterpiece, which will be to shove a giudicci stem into a block of briar which I have sanded with 80000 grit paper for 80000 hours until it is vaguely round, and then sell my art for $80000. See the brilliant art I've hidden there?

[Alden]

See the brilliant art I've hidden there?

I see what you did there

[KurtHuhn]

Good grief. Thank goodness you guys didn't read what I just read.

Some of you may know that Messer was on "probation" and had to have all of his posts approved by me or Tyler, and while I won't say things were going excellently, most posts were allowed even if they weren't particularly helpful or germane simply because they weren't offensive. And, I'll admit, amusing in their ignorance.

That said, I no longer feel like approving Mike's posts, partially because it's effin' tedious, and partially because I just don't feel like seeing the forums suffer because of them. It's kind of like that "friend" in college that would get really drunk on a regular basis and pass out on your couch or dining room table. It's all happy fun time, especially when he's stumbling around making a fool of himself and getting laughed at, but then he starts breaking your stuff when he falls down, pissing in the closet because he's too drunk to tell the difference between that and the bathroom, grabs your girlfriend's butt and sticks his tongue in her ear, and finally barfs on you as you're trying to get his sorry ass out onto the back porch in the morning because you've got to get to work and you'll be damned if you're going to leave him alone in your house.

Kinda like that.

Anyway, Mike, I'm tired of dealing with your ignorance. I won't be approving your posts anymore, and depending on the bombs you decide to post for me look at, I might just ban you - which I was actually considering anyway.

Was this in bad form? Maybe. But frankly I don't care. Since you decided to piss in my closet, I've decided to rub your nose in it.

[RadDavis]

I spend about 45 minutes to an hour on a stem.

Rad

You should spend longer so there aren't tool marks on the face of the stem.

I hope this helps.

But that would take me like 18 hours.

Rad

[Alden]

grabs your girlfriend's butt and sticks his tongue in her ear

At least he didnt grab her ear and..... never mind.
I'll miss Mike around. Sure he's ridiculous, arrogant, belligerent and irrational, but....well......
Ok.

[Leus]

Because he's been at it for quite a while

My mind slipped a bit here. I read "because he's been an idiot for quite a while"...

<b>Edit:</b> I miss Mike already

[Sasquatch]

This is all good. Can we go back to beating up on Ernie now? That's something I'm good at.