Trending

[Yak]

A one year-old post @ Pipes Magazine. FWIW:

I do see a cliff coming for artisan pipemakers. I've seen it in ceramics, lampwork glass work, silversmithing, and lapidary.

The market catches fire with collectors of these things. The up and coming generation sees these extraordinary prices these artisans are getting, and they buy a lathe. I am also seeing the pipe making tool industry take advantage of this by offering the chucks needed for pipes and the spoons needed to cut the chamber. Vulcanite and briar are being sold in various places that you didn't see them before, making them very easy to find. Next thing you know the market will be saturated. Right now, the market is in the crazy range, but I also see the tool industry jumping in and the knowledge, videos, tutorials, local woodworking clubs featuring beginner pipe makers.

Just wait, they'll be giving the things away. They won't be amazing quality, but they'll be easier to find. And, even the top end makers will have to drop in prices as competition for the buying public's attention grows. I'd say that about half of the people I see come in the local Briary on the weekends have a lathe.

[sandahlpipe]

Basic market economics. But the established pipe makers are relatively immune because they have little competition. The hobbyist doesn't compete with Lars or Toku. When the casual maker realizes he's not making the money he thought he would, he'll liquidate and the market will correct itself.

It's not a good time to take on debt as a pipe maker, but if you hang on for a few years, I suspect you'll be just fine.

On the upside, these new makers indicate we're getting more new people to the hobby and that's great for everyone.

[Massis]

Isn't this basicly the pipe turd discussion all over?

I think there's a few types of carvers:
- experienced high-end makers who, like Jeremiah says, are pretty immune to this problem
- novice pipemakers, in it for the long haul (I consider myself one of these). We're in for a rough time as our target market is being flooded
- hipsters hoping for a quick buck, charging high-end prices for low end crap. They'll liquidate soon enough.

There's only one effect I'm worried about at this point: because the high-end market appears to be stalling recently, many of the high-end carvers have started a budget line of handfinished pipes such as Askwith's handfinished, Teipens Heritage, Talbert's ligne bretagne, ... (or even handmade, such as Walt's Cardinal house pipes). With those big names competing in the low end price range, it becomes very hard for the novice pipemakers such as myself to compete.
The upside is that this will probably flush out most of the turds...

Then again I might be seeing things which have been there for a long time and I'm only noticing them now, because it's only now that I'm starting to aim for that piece of the market?

[PremalChheda]

I am still seeing an increase overall. Worst that will happen as long as the world economy does not collapse is:

1 . The higher priced elder carvers will retire before their prices drop.
2. There will be a few stars that replace them.
3. A new generation of middle and lower priced will emerge.
4. The cycle goes on and on.

The dedicated will always have a good market for their pipes. It will become harder for a factory to complete with the individual makers.

[sandahlpipe]

It will become harder for a factory to complete with the individual makers.

Can you explain your reasoning behind this statement? It seems that the work of new factories like Briarworks is a direct competitor to the mid-to-low range individual makers, because the newer carvers haven't created their own style yet while Briarworks is able to sell pipes with style at the price point of the individual carvers. Or are you just referring to the traditional factories?

[PremalChheda]

It will become harder for a factory to complete with the individual makers.

Can you explain your reasoning behind this statement? It seems that the work of new factories like Briarworks is a direct competitor to the mid-to-low range individual makers, because the newer carvers haven't created their own style yet while Briarworks is able to sell pipes with style at the price point of the individual carvers. Or are you just referring to the traditional factories?

In general, costs for a factory will keep going up while demand dwindles. A pipe maker only can make so many pipes per year, and usually can sell every one even when demand is down.

[pipedreamer]

There are too many pipe newbies out there in an economy that is having a hard time surviving, that think all they have to do is make pipes. I just got a magazine from a large company that offer pipes from 30$ up to around 150$. The reason some of the high end carvers are selling a second line is so they can pay their bills.Most of the carvers from yesteryear did other things, or owned the tobacco store and sold everything. I have no problems selling my pipes since i'm low production and that affords me the luxury of taking my time . I don't have to produce x number of pipes to fulfill contracts. As Premal stated, you can only make so many pipes. If I had to produce a lot of pipes with all that pressure, I would be getting the basic unit from China, or the many others that are set up for volume at 10$ a pipe and then go over them to make sure they smoked properly.Assembly lines are the american way.That's why many have gotten together to form small companies to keep the quality up.Some people that aren't even pipe makers do this and seem to do well??? This is just survival. What tears me a new one, is talking to some guy in his twenties that thinks all he has to do is float a loan, buy all the equipment, oh and yes learn how to make a decent pipe that smokes well.Then at a price range of over 500$ He will get rich.The cliff is here and some of the older guys are jumping. I keep on making them one at a time and if anything is left over I give them to the troops or some guy that can't afford a handmade!!! The outcome, is a big smile! That's why I made them in the first place. To make people happy!!! Including myself!!!

[caskwith]

One thing you will never see is a rich pipe maker.

[pipedreamer]

I've seen rich pipe makers, but not from making pipes!!!

[PremalChheda]

There are too many pipe newbies out there in an economy that is having a hard time surviving, that think all they have to do is make pipes. I just got a magazine from a large company that offer pipes from 30$ up to around 150$. The reason some of the high end carvers are selling a second line is so they can pay their bills.Most of the carvers from yesteryear did other things, or owned the tobacco store and sold everything. I have no problems selling my pipes since i'm low production and that affords me the luxury of taking my time . I don't have to produce x number of pipes to fulfill contracts. As Premal stated, you can only make so many pipes. If I had to produce a lot of pipes with all that pressure, I would be getting the basic unit from China, or the many others that are set up for volume at 10$ a pipe and then go over them to make sure they smoked properly.Assembly lines are the american way.That's why many have gotten together to form small companies to keep the quality up.Some people that aren't even pipe makers do this and seem to do well??? This is just survival. What tears me a new one, is talking to some guy in his twenties that thinks all he has to do is float a loan, buy all the equipment, oh and yes learn how to make a decent pipe that smokes well.Then at a price range of over 500$ He will get rich.The cliff is here and some of the older guys are jumping. I keep on making them one at a time and if anything is left over I give them to the troops or some guy that can't afford a handmade!!! The outcome, is a big smile! That's why I made them in the first place. To make people happy!!! Including myself!!!

I meant to reference only the guys that are in it for the long haul. They will be fine and will sell everything they make, even when the time gets rough. They are smart about their business and have built a foundation and relationships that will last through the slow times. The makers that are not in it fully (and I mean their entire being, not just full time/ part time) will go on to something else when things slow down.

[pipedreamer]

Premal, could you define what You mean by ( long haul) Because as I have seen, most pipe makers have problems with cash flow and the ups and downs of the pipe market...

[PremalChheda]

Premal, could you define what You mean by ( long haul) Because as I have seen, most pipe makers have problems with cash flow and the ups and downs of the pipe market...

I thought "long haul" was clear.

"For life"

[Billy Klubb]

we've been seeing this in the beer world as well. of course it's a larger market, but it seems most anyone that brews a beer kit or two thinks they can brew beer on a professional level. the result has been hundreds of mediocre to downright bad breweries popping up and flooding the market. a lot of established craft breweries have been selling out to InBev since it's become harder and harder for them to turn a profit. I'm all about someone making a living doing what they love, but they should at least be good at it. obviously on the larger scale this is much different that quality pipe making. what I see as the same is every hobbyist thinking they can make a living (and get rich) after cutting a pipe or two (or brewing a beer or two). the joke (and truth) in the brewing world is that if you want to make a million dollars brewing, then start with two million. I have the feeling it's the same with pipe making. bottom line in my eyes: Hobbyists, leave your disillusions in bed until you have nailed accuracy and quality of the styles.

[pipedreamer]

Premal, The misunderstanding is on my part! The printed word sometimes loses its' context for me. It is rare to hear someone state, with depth and soul, what all long time pipemakers inherently feel. Also it doesn't help, when you could make a pipe for forty years, before learng to type with two fingers. In graduate school computers were questions with a yes or no response. I have seen a lot of changes in almost seven decades. I feel the Forum is significant. This wasn't there when I started. By grace, I got to learn from many that were generous with their craft and abilities. We are fortunate you are giving in this respect . I thank you for your time and patience!!!

[PremalChheda]

we've been seeing this in the beer world as well. of course it's a larger market, but it seems most anyone that brews a beer kit or two thinks they can brew beer on a professional level. the result has been hundreds of mediocre to downright bad breweries popping up and flooding the market. a lot of established craft breweries have been selling out to InBev since it's become harder and harder for them to turn a profit. I'm all about someone making a living doing what they love, but they should at least be good at it. obviously on the larger scale this is much different that quality pipe making. what I see as the same is every hobbyist thinking they can make a living (and get rich) after cutting a pipe or two (or brewing a beer or two). the joke (and truth) in the brewing world is that if you want to make a million dollars brewing, then start with two million. I have the feeling it's the same with pipe making. bottom line in my eyes: Hobbyists, leave your disillusions in bed until you have nailed accuracy and quality of the styles.

These are some good points, but also there is more in depth technical construction that new pipemakers and pipemakers that do not progress their craft need to apply to the product before making them suitable for sale. After inspecting a few new pipemakers work (and by new, I mean those that have been making pipes for up to 10 years) over the years, the ones that have seeked and listened to proper guidance are up to par. The ones that have not are still making pipes at a hobbyist level in some aspects. Those that are hobbyist should not brand their pipes if they are going to sell them.

[Billy Klubb]

we've been seeing this in the beer world as well. of course it's a larger market, but it seems most anyone that brews a beer kit or two thinks they can brew beer on a professional level. the result has been hundreds of mediocre to downright bad breweries popping up and flooding the market. a lot of established craft breweries have been selling out to InBev since it's become harder and harder for them to turn a profit. I'm all about someone making a living doing what they love, but they should at least be good at it. obviously on the larger scale this is much different that quality pipe making. what I see as the same is every hobbyist thinking they can make a living (and get rich) after cutting a pipe or two (or brewing a beer or two). the joke (and truth) in the brewing world is that if you want to make a million dollars brewing, then start with two million. I have the feeling it's the same with pipe making. bottom line in my eyes: Hobbyists, leave your disillusions in bed until you have nailed accuracy and quality of the styles.

These are some good points, but also there is more in depth technical construction that new pipemakers and pipemakers that do not progress their craft need to apply to the product before making them suitable for sale. After inspecting a few new pipemakers work (and by new, I mean those that have been making pipes for up to 10 years) over the years, the ones that have seeked and listened to proper guidance are up to par. The ones that have not are still making pipes at a hobbyist level in some aspects. Those that are hobbyist should not brand their pipes if they are going to sell them.

I think we're on the same page here.

[pipedreamer]

The new pipe makers don't realize how much the internet has helped; Especially sites as this Forum!!! Also in the selling of pipes…Local and beyond.