Off Limits?

[FredS]

To prevent embarrassing myself, I have a question for the pros and really advanced part timers: Are there any pipemaking questions that are off limits or uncouth? Is there a subject we should just not bring up?

For instance – one of my hobbies is building cars and there are a few rules of the road that car guys know about when looking at or talking about another guy’s car. You don’t open the door without asking permission - you don’t even touch it without asking permission. You don’t ask how much it cost to build. And you generally don’t ask how fast it goes (unless it's a race car or a street car with the back tires are nearly burned off and you can tell that the guy definitely flogs the crap out of it). You may ask how long it took to build, how many HP she puts out, what gear it has, rocker ratios, header size, where the wheels came from, etc. These rules are passed from one generation to another and nothing brands you as a dude faster than asking the wrong type of question.

I also hunt. You should never ask a returning hunter if he "caught" anything.

So, when it comes to making pipes, can I ask how you achieve your distinctive contrast stain? Or about your final finish process to achieve that long lasting shine? Or what media type/size and air pressure you use for your distinctive blasts? I’m not asking for the secret handshake; just tell me how to avoid stepping out of bounds.

[ToddJohnson]

To prevent embarrassing myself, I have a question for the pros and really advanced part timers: Are there any pipemaking questions that are off limits or uncouth? Is there a subject we should just not bring up?

For instance – one of my hobbies is building cars and there are a few rules of the road that car guys know about when looking at or talking about another guy’s car. You don’t open the door without asking permission - you don’t even touch it without asking permission. You don’t ask how much it cost to build. And you generally don’t ask how fast it goes (unless it's a race car or a street car with the back tires are nearly burned off and you can tell that the guy definitely flogs the crap out of it). You may ask how long it took to build, how many HP she puts out, what gear it has, rocker ratios, header size, where the wheels came from, etc. These rules are passed from one generation to another and nothing brands you as a dude faster than asking the wrong type of question.

I also hunt. You should never ask a returning hunter if he "caught" anything.

So, when it comes to making pipes, can I ask how you achieve your distinctive contrast stain? Or about your final finish process to achieve that long lasting shine? Or what media type/size and air pressure you use for your distinctive blasts? I’m not asking for the secret handshake; just tell me how to avoid stepping out of bounds.

Hey Fred,

First off, it's good to know you're a car guy. I've been in and around the street rod industry for almost two decades. Before I started making pipes, I owned a street rod upholstery business. I also built and sold turn-key Anglias and Willys. Your question is a good one, and I think its' answer largely depends on who's answering it. Here's my answer.

Certain questions are "out of bounds" not necessarily because of their content, but because of the disrespect they can show. For instance, Jeff and Jody and I don't really keep any secrets from one another (at least they don't think so ) because everyone brings something to the party. I know that when I essentially give away something that I've worked for years to perfect, it will at some point be reciprocated by those guys. If you don't bring anything to the party, it's sort of like being that guy in a group project who contributes nothing but expects to get the same high marks as everyone else who worked their tails off.

The other thing that I consider in poor taste--and so does every other pipemaker I've ever talked to--is asking for very specific specifics that would require a pipemaker to do lots of legwork for you. For instance a question like "what tool do you use to achieve that finish, and what sorts of attachments on the tool are required, and which bits go in the attachments, and what are their part numbers, and where can I get them, and is there any where cheaper than that that I can get them?" This is not an exaggeration. I have received inquiries almost identical to this which I most often ignore.

I think, generally speaking, professionals of any sort expect to offer tips and advice without detailing the whole process step-by-step. You guys are expected to do some experimenting, get some real live data, tweak your process a bit, maybe tweak it again, and come to the "question table" with a bit more of an informed perspective. Then the question looks more like this: "So I've been using bit X in tool Y, and I've adjusted the setting twice, but I'm still getting chatter. Is there a way to prevent this?" That question will almost certainly get answered while the earlier question will almost certainly get ignored.

I hope that's a helpful general summary of my thoughts on the matter.

Todd

[pipeyeti]

Sound advice Todd.

[KurtHuhn]

Hey Fred,

I suppose there are some questions that are out of bounds, but most pipe makers are polite enough to tell you when you've gone that far. Things like sandblasting method and materials are one of these questions for most makers - though many are happy to tell you where you should start in your quest for a good sandblast finish. It's when you get into asking specific questions like what media, what size media, what pressure, what gun, what nozzle, how far to hold it, etc, where most guys will tell you to start experimenting or to compensate them for their time spent experimenting.

Another example is contrast stains. Any pipe maker I've talked to will give you A Recipe for a contrast stain. But guys that have developed a really strong contrast tend to keep that info close to their chest. Sometimes you'll get a redirection answer like "I usually just use leather dye" - when in fact, the leather dye may only make up one part of the process.

Thing is, when you're just learning a craft like this, I don't think you should be afraid to ask questions or step on toes. There may be times you will get told that the info you've requested is a trade secret, but those times are few. Also, as you get to know folks better, they'll be willing to share more info with you. Part of that is being active in the community, as well as being receptive to information, and putting your so-called "dues". That last one is probably very important to most makers - they don't want to be investing a lot of time in someone who will get bored with pipe-making in another few months.

Also, sharing info is a two-way street. Keep that in mind (not just you, Fred, but everyone). People are more willing to share info, when you have some bit of knowledge or info to share back with them - and I think you'd be surprised that it doesn't always have to be about pipe making.

[FredS]

That's what I'm looking for Todd. The questions that would be seen as disrepectful or in poor tast. I've never been accused of kissing anyones ass, but I sure don't want to piss off (or on) the very guys who can help me.

[ToddJohnson]

People are more willing to share info, when you have some bit of knowledge or info to share back with them - and I think you'd be surprised that it doesn't always have to be about pipe making.

Very true, Fred. In fact, if you can put me in touch with someone who would be willing to trade me a black 41 Willys with a 700 horse blown small block for a few high grade pipes, I would say there is almost nothing you could ask me that would be off limits anymore.

Todd

[FredS]

Get the F outta here Todd. You have got to be kidding me! I just happen to know of such a rod. There's a local sprint car racer with this badass, street legal, '41 Willys gasser. Not a small block, but would you settle for a Hemi? He drives it around town once in a while. Take a big whiff and you can almost smell the race gas exhaust fumes as he rumbles by.



BTW - This guy owns a steel fabrication company called JAYAHWK (as in my avatar) Millwright.

[KurtHuhn]

Todd and I must have been typing our replies at about the same time.

And like Todd, I would be incredibly happy to be put in touch with someone in New England willing to trade handmade pipes for some personal instruction in creating pattern welded steel.

[jeff]

The other thing that Todd did not mention is that there have been instances in my experience and I am sure in his and Jody's in which folks have asked for detailed or proprietary information and when the answer is not given they either are either offended or again press for the information. In such cases, the still unanswered question is met with, "Well, it never hurts to ask." ...to which I would respond, "Oh yes it did." I am far less likely to even give that person basic information after having been pressed to divulge information that have chosen to withhold.

Yes, I am, as most pipemakers are, willing to generously offer information as it has also been shared with me. However, I would strongly recommend people follow the guidelines that Todd has laid out so that bridges are not burned.

Best,

Jeff

[Frank]

I also hunt. You should never ask a returning hunter if he "caught" anything.

....since there's not much chance of catch-and-release there!

[bscofield]

I also hunt. You should never ask a returning hunter if he "caught" anything.

....since there's not much chance of catch-and-release there!

I don't know about that... I was sure that I had 'caught' a few at some points only to have them release themselves... stupid deer!

[bscofield]

Hey Fred,

First off, it's good to know you're a car guy. I've been in and around the street rod industry for almost two decades. Before I started making pipes, I owned a street rod upholstery business. I also built and sold turn-key Anglias and Willys. Your question is a good one, and I think its' answer largely depends on who's answering it. Here's my answer.

Certain questions are "out of bounds" not necessarily because of their content, but because of the disrespect they can show. For instance, Jeff and Jody and I don't really keep any secrets from one another (at least they don't think so ) because everyone brings something to the party. I know that when I essentially give away something that I've worked for years to perfect, it will at some point be reciprocated by those guys. If you don't bring anything to the party, it's sort of like being that guy in a group project who contributes nothing but expects to get the same high marks as everyone else who worked their tails off.

The other thing that I consider in poor taste--and so does every other pipemaker I've ever talked to--is asking for very specific specifics that would require a pipemaker to do lots of legwork for you. For instance a question like "what tool do you use to achieve that finish, and what sorts of attachments on the tool are required, and which bits go in the attachments, and what are their part numbers, and where can I get them, and is there any where cheaper than that that I can get them?" This is not an exaggeration. I have received inquiries almost identical to this which I most often ignore.

I think, generally speaking, professionals of any sort expect to offer tips and advice without detailing the whole process step-by-step. You guys are expected to do some experimenting, get some real live data, tweak your process a bit, maybe tweak it again, and come to the "question table" with a bit more of an informed perspective. Then the question looks more like this: "So I've been using bit X in tool Y, and I've adjusted the setting twice, but I'm still getting chatter. Is there a way to prevent this?" That question will almost certainly get answered while the earlier question will almost certainly get ignored.

I hope that's a helpful general summary of my thoughts on the matter.

Todd

Doh!!

I've probably been guilty of some of those... though its been out of ignorance. Sorry if thats been my position with any of you guys!

[FredS]

We can learn a lot from Ben's mistakes.

[bscofield]

We can learn a lot from Ben's mistakes.

You are the 2nd person in 2 days to say that on a pipe-related site...

[kkendall]

We can learn a lot from Ben's mistakes.

You are the 2nd person in 2 days to say that on a pipe-related site...

[AaronWhitehouse0077]

What a great topic, I am completly new to this, and I think I've learned more about pipe making from this thread then many others. Yeah turning and shaping and materials are important, but for learning purposes It should go that the best knowledge in learning is etiquet within the field. Thanks for starting this thread it is invaluable.

~Aaron