Pipe pricings

[josh_ford]

Hey ya'll

Problem: I am a poor recent college grad without much "expendible income"

Problem: You blokes have made me fall in love with pipemaking.

Solution: Try to sell my pipes

Now I've sold a few pipes to friends and such for $50 or so but so far that has not really helped me to expand what I'm doing, it covers expenses but not much more.

Now I know this question may not be readily answerable but is there really a big difference between the engineering and finishes of $600 and $200 or is it basically the name of the carver that is pushing those kind of prices. (don't worry I'm not under any illusions of granduer by trying to sell my pipes for $600 I just want to know).

Do I sell my pipes for $100 even though I think I could sell them for more but to make sure they sell or do I pull a Martha Stewart and sell them for $500 just hoping someone will think they are a "high end pipe" and buy them?

I am just curious how you guys establish your price ranges for pipes. Did you start low and raise your prices as your fame grew? Did you just start out where you wanted to be and waited for people to notice you?

I would appreciate all opinions on the issue. Thanks guys.

Josh

[bvartist]

Josh,

According to the Pipe Gurus on ASP, no unknown pipe carver should ever sell their creations for more than $75 Of course you've got to take into account where that statement is coming from.

My suggestion is look at the prices and quality of a lot of other makers. And price your pipes accordingly. If you can match the symmetry, skill level, artistry and fit and finish of pipes selling for $500, then use that as a guide for your pricing level. However you do have to keep in mind that very few pipe buyers will spend that kind of money on an unknown. I price mine a little below what I think they are worth simply because my name isn't known as well as some of the others. Name recognition is a very big consideration selling pipes.

The old business statement holds true also: If you are selling to nobody, your prices are too high. If you are selling to everybody, your prices are too low. If you are selling to most, your prices are about right. So be prepared to adjust!

Just a few ramblings! Hope it helps some.

David

[RadDavis]

In the beginning, pricing your own work is very difficult.

IMO, it's better to start out too low than too high. You can always raise prices, but it's difficult to lower them. If you lower prices you tend to alienate any buyers who paid a higher price for your earlier work.

My philosophy has always been to offer the best bang for the buck. I make a lot of pipes, and I don't want my inventory getting stale.

One way to get an idea of where you should be pricewise is to go to as many shows as you can and get opinions from collectors and other makers. Most people you ask will be very honest with you about your work.

A friend of mine (new maker) was at Columbus and Richmond this year and had his pipes priced at 200-250. He didn't sell a pipe at either show. He went to Kansas City, and had reduced his prices to 125-175, and he sold eight pipes.

Rad

[Heinz_D]

I agree to Rad: It's better to start low to get some experiences! But not too low, of course! It's very difficult to find the right way by yourselfe... Everybody is convinced of his work and you may be satisfied with every pipe you finished - but you've to get as much feedback of potential customers, other pipemakers or/and friends, as you can get!

I've visited a few lokal pipeshows, spoke with some established German pipemakers (Peter Klein, Rainer Barbi, Frank Axmacher, Roger Wallenstein) and they gave me some good advice.

So far I sold 2 of 14 of my pipes - but the first ones were only results of a beginner! So I would say, I've made about 6 or 7 pipes who are good enough to get sold. For the 2 pipes I got 100,- Euro each, that is about 125,- $. The customer got the chance to look at the pipes and than decide to buy or to give them back - both customers were satisfied with this method and kept the pipes I sent them...

For new pipemakers in Germany 80,- to 150,- Euro (100,- to 200,- $) seems to be a good price, if the quality is O. K.

For higher prices I think you've to get known as a good pipemaker - and that'll only happen, if the quality of your pipes is or becomes good enough to justify high prices...

But, what you'll never get is high prices for bad quality! If you'll make high end pipes you've to invest in good materials and tools! In Germany we've a lot of hobby pipemaker who are thinking about good pipes out of cheap ebauchons - forget it...

[josh_ford]

Thanks for your replies. I am pretty happy in the pipes that I've made but I can't really progress business wise at only $50 a pipe.

Why is it that all the hard questions don't have easy answers? Thanks again for all the input.

Josh

[KurtHuhn]

In the immortal words of Samuel L. Jackson:
"If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions."



Honestly, though, Rad is right. Price low, and raise later. That way, your early customers get to feel good about buying in when your prices were low. It's far, far easier to go up than come down.

Yes, it might just barely cover expenses, but it's what you've got to do until you you're confident of your work, and, mor importantly, your prospective customer base is confident of your work. Not everyone can command real money for pipes. That comes with name recognition, experience, and artistic ability.

Got pics of your current work? That might help us give you a ballpark.

[RadDavis]

Hey Josh,

Also keep in mind that pricing low in the beginning is relative. It doesn't necessarrily mean in the 50-100 range.

It means low relative to quality. If you're creating $600.00 quality and selling it for $300.00, then word will spread, and when you can't keep up with demand, then raise your prices.

Rad

[ToddJohnson]

Hey Josh,

Also keep in mind that pricing low in the beginning is relative. It doesn't necessarrily mean in the 50-100 range.

It means low relative to quality. If you're creating $600.00 quality and selling it for $300.00, then word will spread, and when you can't keep up with demand, then raise your prices.

Rad

Aah, what does Rad know, his pipes are WAY underpriced! Seriously though, it's a tough subject. My advice would be this: Don't try to use pipemaking to support your pipemaking. If you're struggling to get $50 for a pipe and it's costing you $30 to make, it will be years before you're able to get a leg up. Try to use another income stream--be it part-time job, christmas/birthday money (I remember being a college student ) etc.--to build your inventory of tools and supplies. Better tools and materials will likely increase the quality of your production, and the price that you're able to charge. From my perspective, if you're hand-carving pipes that you can only get $100 for, you're probably not ready to sell them yet. Wait until you've progressed to a point that warrants slightly higher prices before entering the market. One thing to consider is the fact that you will be tied to the price point where you enter the market for quite some time. And do remember to take this advice with a grain of salt. I hope it's helpful.

Kind regards,

Todd

[bvartist]

Yes, it might just barely cover expenses, but it's what you've got to do until you you're confident of your work, and, mor importantly, your prospective customer base is confident of your work. Not everyone can command real money for pipes. That comes with name recognition, experience, and artistic ability.

Another thought. I sold several pipes on ebay for $50-95 before really starting to market myself. Most of those cheap sales led to the buyer purchasing more expensive pipes later on. Although sometimes difficult to justify a sale that doesn't make you much profit over materials, the benefits may be seen in the future. And sometimes a sale is better than no sale. IMO its better to sell a pipe under what you think it is worth than having it sit around not selling with a high price tag on it. If people think they are getting a bargain on a quality product, they are more likely to spend more on future purchases.

[josh_ford]

Thanks for all the input. I am going to start streaming a percentage of workmoney into pipemaking so I can get some better equipment.

David, you bring up another question about the whole ebay thing. Is that probably the way to go as a begginer or should I start to set up a webpage or something?

Is it possible to go to too many pipeshows? Or the more the better?

Thanks all for your help.

I have quite a few blocks waiting to turn into masterpieces (yeah right) so I'll post them when I finish and see what you guys think.

Thanks again

Josh

[bvartist]

David, you bring up another question about the whole ebay thing. Is that probably the way to go as a begginer or should I start to set up a webpage or something?

Is it possible to go to too many pipeshows? Or the more the better?

Ebay is a way to go, not necessarily the way. One thing I found is, selling on ebay, and setting up a web page I got a lot of traffic to my site from my ebay listings. The biggest problem with ebay is as an unknown you'll be selling at about 50% of what you think the pipe should sell for. But it is a way to gain exposure and get your name out there. My suggestion would be to do both a website and ebay if you want to go that direction. Best thing to do is decide on a plan and try to carry it out. B&M's, shows, web page, ebay in whatever combination you decide is best for you. Hanging around your local B&M with a couple pipes and talking to the locals is also an option. Basically anything you can do to get your name in front of people buying pipes.

I suppose if you spent all your time going to shows it might be too many!

[ToddJohnson]

If people think they are getting a bargain on a quality product, they are more likely to spend more on future purchases.

. . . or to expect that same bargain always and forever, refusing to buy so and so's pipes because they were getting them for half that only a year ago.

Maybe you needn't let $50 pipes sit around on a shelf. It's fine to sell them to friends or relatives, and turn that money into better tools or more briar. But if you sell pipes publically at rock-bottom prices then, to a large degree, you're going to attract bargain-hunters. Unless you're Wal-Mart, it's difficult to make a decent living by targeting said bargain-hunters.

Todd

[ToddJohnson]

Thanks for all the input. I am going to start streaming a percentage of workmoney into pipemaking so I can get some better equipment.

David, you bring up another question about the whole ebay thing. Is that probably the way to go as a begginer or should I start to set up a webpage or something?

Is it possible to go to too many pipeshows? Or the more the better?

Thanks all for your help.

I have quite a few blocks waiting to turn into masterpieces (yeah right) so I'll post them when I finish and see what you guys think.

Thanks again

Josh

Hey Josh,

I would really steer clear of eBay if you have eventual hopes of creating and selling high-grade pipes. Again, eBay is a place where most people hunt for bargains, and from a branding standpoint, it doesn't make sense to associate yourself or your pipes with discount pricing in the beginning if you're going to try and justify people paying a premium for them in the end. It's just not a good long term strategy. Auctions are great for items with an established customer base, but not so good when there aren't multiple acquisitive egos vying for the same object.

As far as pipeshows go, I would say to attend the ones you can. Chicago and Richmond are the really important shows and not to be missed if you can get there. I guess you could go overboard on pipeshows, but I'm not sure what the pitfalls would be . . .

Good luck,

Todd

[bvartist]

I would really steer clear of eBay if you have eventual hopes of creating and selling high-grade pipes. Again, eBay is a place where most people hunt for bargains, and from a branding standpoint, it doesn't make sense to associate yourself or your pipes with discount pricing in the beginning if you're going to try and justify people paying a premium for them in the end. It's just not a good long term strategy. Auctions are great for items with an established customer base, but not so good when there aren't multiple acquisitive egos vying for the same object.

That depends totally on what grade of pipe I'm trying to sell on ebay. Sure, it makes no sense to try and sell high grade pipes on ebay for rock bottom prices, but I see nothing wrong with selling well executed lower grade pipes there to start a customer base. Had I not done so, I'd still be sitting here waiting to sell my first few pipes. Nearly every one of my ebay sales has resulted in a full priced purchase off my website. So its not always the case that people aren't willing to pay "retail" even though they have bought at a deep discount in the past. A pipe maker that puts out good product will find a customer base reguardless of how they go about expanding that base. IMO

As far as pipeshows go, I would say to attend the ones you can. Chicago and Richmond are the really important shows and not to be missed if you can get there. I guess you could go overboard on pipeshows, but I'm not sure what the pitfalls would be . . .

Big pitfall! Attending too many shows doesn't leave enough time to create pipes!!!

[josh_ford]

Thanks guys,

I really appreciate all the input. I see both the pros and cons of the ebay route. I attended the Chicago show last year, met a few of you guys there, and had a great time. I think, however, that while in Africa I missed the cut off date for a table. What is the cut off for a table at the Richmond show? I was also hoping to go to the Columbus show this year, it is the closest one. I just can't put a whole lot of money into reserving table space right now and not have enough money left over for briar to put on it

I am really exited to get these blocks I have sitting around carved to get everyone's "expert" opinions on what you guys might think they are worth.

Thanks a lot,

Josh

[RadDavis]

Hey Josh, I think I remember you. Did you have that funky poker with the ramp going around the outside? That was a pretty cool pipe!

Rad

[KurtHuhn]

I was also hoping to go to the Columbus show this year, it is the closest one. I just can't put a whole lot of money into reserving table space right now and not have enough money left over for briar to put on it

I'm planning on being in Columbus next year (I missed this year). I'd be happy to set aside some space for you if you have something you want to show off.

[ToddJohnson]

That depends totally on what grade of pipe I'm trying to sell on ebay. Sure, it makes no sense to try and sell high grade pipes on ebay for rock bottom prices, but I see nothing wrong with selling well executed lower grade pipes there to start a customer base. Had I not done so, I'd still be sitting here waiting to sell my first few pipes. Nearly every one of my ebay sales has resulted in a full priced purchase off my website. So its not always the case that people aren't willing to pay "retail" even though they have bought at a deep discount in the past. A pipe maker that puts out good product will find a customer base reguardless of how they go about expanding that base. IMO

Quoting myself here: "I would really steer clear of eBay if you have eventual hopes of creating and selling high-grade pipes.". It's fine to sell your work on eBay, but doing that will automatically put you in a certain category. The question is whether or not that's a category you're comfortable being in. My advice to someone who hopes to create high grade pipes and compete in the global marketplace is to avoid placing yourself in that category.

Running a 50% off sale may help you sell pipes, but it also significantly devalues your work. So, in my opinion, does selling them on eBay if you have aspirations of becoming a maker of high-grade pipes. If, however, selling on eBay fits into your longterm strategy, that's fantastic. It's an inexpensive and efficient way to bring your work to market, and it's probably a good way to hit a lot of guys in the low to mid-grade price range. There are certainly different business strategies, and eBay has its place in certain of those, no doubt.

Todd

[bvartist]

No doubt Todd, there are many different business strategies. And thats mostly what I was referring to. And its always good to look at several different ways and plan a strategy based on what the individual pipemaker is comfortable with. However, I do also think that a maker can do both. And doesn't have to be limited to just "high grade" or "low grade" pipes. Offering pipes in a broad price range will effectively bring in a larger market. My feeling is that there are relatively few people that can afford "high grade" pipes, ie $500 and up. But most people can afford the under $500 catagory.

BTW, can I talk you into stamping your pipes with your initials? They're close enough to mine that maybe people would confuse the two! Might not be good for you, but would be great for me!!

David

[StephenDownie]

Hey Josh,

Good to hear the pipe making bug stuck. I'll add my .2 here and say that before you even think of hitting the open market with your pipes make sure that the workmanship is there. To illustrate: I recently had one of my first pipes sent back to me in need of some minor work. There is nothing really wrong with the pipe, just a list of small things that show it to be the work of an ameteur. I hate the fact that there are pipes out there that I made in the past that aren't up to standard. Wait for a level of quality before selling to the general public and ask other pipe makers who have been around the block for an honest critique. When you're ready to sell compare what you are doing to other pipes in your price range. Pipe shows are excellent places to see if you're in the right place for the price and quality. Also remember that it takes time to gain a following chances are excellent that this will be a hobby for a few years before you can think of making a job of it. There are the flavour of the month pipe makers out there who make a big splash then after the hype wears off slowly slide off the radar because the quality wasn't there. To make a long story short, take your time, develop your skills and don't expect instant success. Good luck, I hope to see you again in Chicago next year.