Bad Briar

[Tsunami]

Man! I am P.O'd I ordered some Tassili Briar from Pipemakers Emporium and boy is it terrible. The first piece I was able to work around the sand pits so no harm no foul. The second one appeared to be better but when I drilled the chamber it had huge faults in the chamber walls. I went from a 3/4 bore all the way to an inch and they were still there. So I wrote them and email as follows.

" Approximately 3 weeks ago I received 2 large pieces of Tassili Briar that was supposed to, I quote “Tighter straight grains shown on 3 sides,. free of deeper-larger pits or rash sand pits. Free of smaller cracks, well cured.” Well unfortunately the one piece had many large fissures and cracks and one fatal one inside the chamber. I know that you cannot know what resides inside a piece of briar but this is not what I expected at all. You may want to rephrase the “free of deeper-larger pits or rash sand pits” from the description or remove it all together. It is unfortunate that a $46.00 dollar piece of briar is now worthless. Just wanted to let you guys know."

I have not received a response so far and I don't know what to expect but I felt I should let them know just the same.

[RussAlan]

I order the bulk of my briar from the Emporium and have never had a problem with any of it. On the other hand, a while back i ordered a bunch of briar from Tim West at JH lowe and didnt have one usable piece in the whole batch. I think that a flawless piece of briar is a difficult thing to find and it almost always comes down to luck of the draw.

[kbadkar]

I have not received a response so far and I don't know what to expect but I felt I should let them know just the same.

I would expect a replacement block of briar. For a $5 block, oh well, you get what you pay for. For $46, it should not have a fatal flaw. PME has a fine reputation. I would call Andrea (when you are in a forgiving mood) and I'm sure she'd offer to replace it.

[KurtHuhn]

Now you know why pipe makers who have been at this for a while prefer to deal directly with the cutter - and even take trips to the mills to handpick their bags of briar. No, you can't tell what's inside a block all of the time, but seasoned eyes can tell if a block is mostly good or bad by telltale signs on the outside.

Not that doing that will solve all your problems, as some of us know....

[Tsunami]

I am going to wait untill I get home tomorrow to see if she has replied to my email and if not I will give her a call. I would hope for a replacement piece but I have the feeling that I am sheit out of luck. As far as dealing with a cutter goes......... I dont have the production or finance to even go there right now. I am a forgiving guy by nature and I know you can not know what lies within a given piece of briar but I would hope not to find such flaws from briar that is proported to be free of such faults. Well on a lighter note I did sell another pipe today so at least that is a good sign.

[Frank]

As far as dealing with a cutter goes......... I dont have the production or finance to even go there right now.

It's too much to put on Kurt, what him trying to get ebonite for us from SEM, but if one of the other serious pipemakers wants to organize a bulk buy from Italy or Greece or .....

[jeff]

Bummer about the block. That is definitely disappointing. They make for some foul language in the shop when such things are uncovered. I will say, though, that even if they do decide to replace the block for you, I don't think that they should. They haven't guaranteed that it will be completely free of flaws, fatal or otherwise, nor would they ever do so if they are wise. You have discovered the unfortunate side of working with briar--no matter how much the block cost, something nasty might lie just beneath the surface. All PME can do is work with what the cutter sends them. It's a raw material, not a finished pipe. It's just a risk we take as workers of briar.

I've worked with blocks that have amazing grain outside only to have bald spots inside, or worse, big holes. Conversely, I've found blocks that have mediocre grain and/or plenty of flaws on the sides of the block, but are very clean and beautifully grained inside. The fact is that not one of the cutters, distributors, nor pipemakers possess the ability to flawlessly know what lies beneath the surface. We're essentially buying a material that is judged only from its exterior and the interior is completely unknown. And that goes for briar from every country, every mill and every distributor that I've worked with. There have certainly been times that I've been very disappointed when an otherwise perfect block yields a golfball sized hole inside rendering it unfit for even sandblasting.

Early on when money was tighter with the business, I certainly considered calling the cutter and complaining. But, after having now worked with briar full time for a few years and part time for several before, I know that I can't hold the mill responsible for the occasionally flawed block, expensive or cheap. If a whole batch contained unusable wood, a call would be warranted, in my book. But a handful is nothing out of the ordinary. It sounds like you just had some bad luck. I hope the others yield some killer pieces!

Best,

Jeff

[Frank]

Somewhere in the forums, a long time ago, the idea of an x-ray or ultrasound apparatus was brought up in thoughts it might help out with the hidden problems problem. Anybody remember that one?

If you're friends with someone on a security point who'll run it through a machine to save you the hassle of starting work on a badly flawed block, fine. I seriously doubt the mills or retailers would be bothered buying an x-ray machine. Consider the cost of the machine, plus having to scrap flawed blocks which they can now sell and the end user has to suck up, even though they're not doing it deliberately.

[KurtHuhn]

Bummer about the block. That is definitely disappointing. They make for some foul language in the shop when such things are uncovered. I will say, though, that even if they do decide to replace the block for you, I don't think that they should. They haven't guaranteed that it will be completely free of flaws, fatal or otherwise, nor would they ever do so if they are wise. You have discovered the unfortunate side of working with briar--no matter how much the block cost, something nasty might lie just beneath the surface. All PME can do is work with what the cutter sends them. It's a raw material, not a finished pipe. It's just a risk we take as workers of briar.

I've worked with blocks that have amazing grain outside only to have bald spots inside, or worse, big holes. Conversely, I've found blocks that have mediocre grain and/or plenty of flaws on the sides of the block, but are very clean and beautifully grained inside. The fact is that not one of the cutters, distributors, nor pipemakers possess the ability to flawlessly know what lies beneath the surface. We're essentially buying a material that is judged only from its exterior and the interior is completely unknown. And that goes for briar from every country, every mill and every distributor that I've worked with. There have certainly been times that I've been very disappointed when an otherwise perfect block yields a golfball sized hole inside rendering it unfit for even sandblasting.

Well said, Jeff! Way more eloquent than I was feeling last night.

As a point of illustration, I pulled out a wonderfully grained block to make a BIG volcano last night, only to find a big, dag-nasty crevice near the bowl rim. I was able to salvage the block, but it's no longer as big a volcano as it was going to be.

[KurtHuhn]

As far as dealing with a cutter goes......... I dont have the production or finance to even go there right now.

It's too much to put on Kurt, what him trying to get ebonite for us from SEM, but if one of the other serious pipemakers wants to organize a bulk buy from Italy or Greece or .....

The biggest problem in dealing with SEM is the language barrier, I think - that and I'm not too sure about their response time on email. It's odd, I was getting tons of replies a few months ago, and then it came to a dead halt. Maybe they took the month of August off?

Anyway, I'm ordering briar here soon too. I'll post a message when something starts happening on that front.

[Ryan]

From my expericiance PME's Algerian wood has a much better throw a away rate than Grecian or Spanish wood.

I have found that you will find 6 out of 12 block will have major flaws or bald spots in Grecian wood, Spanish wood is about 4 out of 12, and Algerian wood is about 2 out of 12.

I have been buying wood from PME for almost 2 years now and you probably wont find a better quality wood for less.

Also Paul the owner of PME has had blocks x-rayed and cat scanned, he told me you cant see inside the block.

[RussAlan]

Also Paul the owner of PME has had blocks x-rayed and cat scanned, he told me you cant see inside the block.

Forget staring into the microwave....a little radiation never hurt anyone!

[KurtHuhn]

I have been buying wood from PME for almost 2 years now and you probably wont find a better quality wood for less.

Well, not since they're the exclusive source of Yazid's briar in the US anyway. Dealing direct with Yazid was far less expensive, and I don't know what happened, but he won't sell direct to pipe makers in the US anymore.

But, you can find excellent wood, on par with the Algerian stuff, for less. You just have to look around and deal directly with the mills. That might not be convenient for most hobbyists though.

[Frank]

But, you can find excellent wood, on par with the Algerian stuff, for less. You just have to look around and deal directly with the mills. That might not be convenient for most hobbyists though.

Although I haven't personally had dealings with him, one might expect to get decent stuff from Mimmo ( http://www.romeobriar.com/main.html ), considering he has worked for years in his father's mill and is now also a pipemaker.

[Alan L]

I'd be up for inclusion in a group buy. I'm one of those hobbyists who can't really justify dropping $300 on a bag of blocks from Mimmo, all the while knowing I'm paying twice as much per capita on the Algerian stuff I get from PME. I can justify $100, but that's about it.

I once got a few blocks of the Spanish stuff on sale from PME. I did get two tiny rusticated pipes out of it, but I also could have used the briar slabs as sandpaper there was so much grit in there. They smoke good though, very porous...

[Tsunami]

Well I still have not recieved a response to my email and I have left 2 messages today on the Pipemakers Emporium answering machine. So I guess I will wait untill monday and I will send another email and try the phone thing again untill I can get a human response.

[kbadkar]

I will say, though, that even if they do decide to replace the block for you, I don't think that they should. They haven't guaranteed that it will be completely free of flaws, fatal or otherwise, nor would they ever do so if they are wise.

Therein lies the problem, the description of the blocks implies a guarantee of the blocks being "free of deeper-larger pits or rash sand pits. Free of smaller cracks, well cured". If you were a first time buyer of briar, you would be led to believe that if it is free of smaller cracks, it should certainly be free of a fatal flaw. Good customer service engenders more loyality than good product the first time around, and bad customer service means you've definitely lost a repeat customer. At $50 a block, it would be pretty disappointing to find 50% rejects in your purchase. A bag of briar at wholesale prices is a different story, but still, if you had a 50% reject rate, you might ask for some kind of compensation from the mill. I'm not sure what percentage of rejects would be acceptable in the briar business, but that percentage is in some way inversely proportional to price. I would agree with Tsunami that if there isn't enough profit margin built into the pricing to occasionally exchange a bad Tassili block under certain circumstances, then the descriptions should be rephrased so the buyer understands that he is absorbing the risk of bad briar or add some fine print that explains that only Nature is responsible for her whimsy.

[kkendall]

Well I still have not recieved a response to my email and I have left 2 messages today on the Pipemakers Emporium answering machine. So I guess I will wait untill monday and I will send another email and try the phone thing again untill I can get a human response.

They are closed Fridays

[jeff]

Implied guarantee? Seriously? Come on guys. It's a block of wood. PME and other suppliers can only vouch for what they see on the outside of the block. Let's not over parse their language here. Any worker of any kind of wood should know that it is prone to flaws unseen from the surface. I would imagine that they guarantee only that which it makes sense to guarantee. They can't control the internal variations of briar blocks regardless of the price or grade. Stuff happens. It sucks. Bummer.

As for the percentage of pieces with flaws, you surely know that you've offered an example that is affected by the total quantity of the order. If he had ordered one and it was the flawed one, it would be 100%. We couldn't then rationally assert that PME's wood has a 100% failure rate. (for that instance, yes, but we both know that that is not a statistically significant example) Order more wood and the percentage drops. Is it disappointing that one of two or three ordered can't be used? It sure is. I'd be bummed too. In fact, I remember being bummed when it happened back when I was making pipes from orders of 2 or 3 blocks at a time. But I also understood that there was no guarantee, implied or otherwise, with respect to the internals of the block.

Andrea may help you out. She may be happy to do so. They are really great people over there. But, she's under neither written nor implied obligation to do so. If it were me, I'd express my disappointment with the block while placing my next order for briar. Maybe she'll throw in a block for you when she boxes up the order.

Good luck with the decision and better luck with future blocks.

Jeff