finishing: I'm lost...

Jeffery_Suter · Post by **Jeffery_Suter** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:40 am

Conserning my last statement, I of course wasn't refering to natural base shellac used in alcohol, I was reffering to the off the shelf poison stuff..

Post by **Tyler** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:39 pm

Jeff,

You make a good clarification on shellac. The natural stuff, dissolved in alcohol, is actually quite harmless. It is used in conjunction with wax to "polish" the nice shiny fruit on your grocer's shelves. (Surely we have all experienced the coating flaking off the nice shiny apples...in some cases, if not all, this is shellac.)

As for the smoking qualities of the pipe, I can discern no difference. Wax is also quite a good sealant, and I do not find that shellac is any different in its affect. Please note that this natural shellac has very little in common with its polymer-based cousin varnish.

Tyler

Post by **Tyler** » Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:40 pm

I suppose shellac keeps longer? More heat tolerant?

Yep. That and it allows for some stain varieties to be used that wouldn't be wise without a shellac finish. Namely, water based stains. I honestly don't know why that is an advantage, but I know makers that use them since they will protect the stain with the shellac.

Tyler

Jeffery_Suter · Post by **Jeffery_Suter** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:50 am

Tyler,

Now you've got me thinking!

I've not seen alcohol based shellac offered from any pipe craft suppliers...

Any insight?

Post by **Tyler** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:53 pm

Jeff,

Shellac is a controversial and misunderstood finish. If this thread were ported to ASP or some other board, there would be folks declaring that we were wrong and ignorant and otherwise ill in the head to suggest such evils as SHELLAC. Add to it that the folks that use shellac are typically the high-end makers that are not ones to jump into a debate in order to dispell myths, and you have the controversy continuing.

At any rate, the net result of all this is that you will not find shellac at standard pipe making supply shops. You must find it seperately.

I just ordered a bunch from http://www.shellac.net. It should be in tomorrow. I have some new finishing ideas that I will be using it for. Hopefully I can report on them later. I've never ordered from this source before, so I look forward to checking the quality of their product. I will say this for them, the ladies that answer the phone were VERY patient with all my ignorant questions, and on the rare occasion that they did not know the answer to something, they found the answer in a hurry.

Tyler

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:04 pm

I was wandering around int eh Rockler store in Columbus last weekend and, on impulse, grabbed a container of super blonde flakes, and a can of pre-mixed blonde. The pre-mixed blonde shellac, made by Zinsser, is nothing but alcohol and shellac - no resins or poly-whatevers.

I don't know if I'm brave enough to risk the resultant flame war and put it on pipes, but I do have other stuff that I want to use it on. Of course, there's nothing stopping me from making a pipe for *me* and using it on that. And that's something I might do. If it works well, more's the loss for the folks that would refuse such a thing - I guess.

Post by **Tyler** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:24 pm

Kirk,

Give it a try on a pipe you keep and smoke yourself. I think when you see and smoke the results, you'll be pleased.

As for the controversy, it only is one if folks know you are doing it.

Tyler

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:58 pm

LOL. You know, I *almost* used it on the rhodesian that I finished last night, but when I decided to send that pipe to Chicago with David Bull, I decided to use carnuba instead. Interestingly, since this pipe has a lot of rustication, I probably could have gotten away with it....

Naw, I'm not that brave yet.

Post by **Tyler** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:53 pm

Oh yeah!

Thanks for that reminder random.

If you contrast stain with an alcohol based dye, then overstain with a water based, you will not remove the understain.

Tyler

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:34 am

You kind of lost me there Tyler. Under what circumstances would the understain be lost?

Sorry. I guess I am a total newb.

Post by **Tyler** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:44 am

When you do an overstain with a stain that uses the same solvent (typically alcohol) of the understain, the overstain's solvent will remove some of the understain. You won't totally lose the understain, just remove some of it. Since the goal of an understain is to provide strong grain contrast, removing some of the understain decreases the contrasting affect you were after.

Does that explain it more clearly?

Tyler

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:16 pm

I would imagine that it would be best to do the understain with a water based stain and then follow with the alcohol based stain.

The reason would be; Water based stains will raise the grain slightly and you will not have that "polished stone" look that a smooth pipe should have. If you start with water based then the raised grain is not an issue because you are going to resand anyway. Then when you follow it up with the alcohol based stain, you will not re-raise the grain.

Jeffery_Suter · Post by **Jeffery_Suter** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:11 pm

Exellent points John!

Tyler, thank's for the shellac supplier info...

I'll have to try some... it's not like i don't have enough cast offs lying around

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:28 pm

Ok, that makes sense. So you would raise the grain, i.e. empahsise the grain, with the understain, and then go for the coloration you desire with the top coat of stain, correct? And a water based stain as the understain would stick better, for lack of a better term, because the top stain wouldn't wash out any of the understain. Cool.

This might seem like common sense to the pros in the group, so please forgive my ignorance. Does that mean its beneficial to buff the stummel out a bit after the first staining? Pulling a bit of the color off the denser part of the wood?

And water based stains are bad for the top coar of stain because if they get splashed with water the stain can fade? That is if they're not coated with shellac.

Tyler,

This is a great forum you've set up. Thanks again.

Post by **Tyler** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:37 pm

Nick,

You've got the idea.

Typically for a contrast stain you would use black, then sand it away, leaving on the grain stained black. (They dark areas of the grain will absorb much more stain.) Then you go over the top with your final color. If you do the top stain with a water based, you need to protect it with shellac for the reason you suggested.

Tyler

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:40 pm

Too cool.

Thanks

jeff · Post by **jeff** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:42 pm

Just for all of your info, hopefully to help out. I just bought a half lb. of Platina Dewaxed Shellac from www.shellac.net, mixed it up, and applied it to my first rusticated pipe (pipe #3, the poker Jeff's Pipes It worked wonderfully and really shines! It is really unbelievable to see the difference between that and the Carnauba process. I only shellacked with no overcoat of wax, nor an undercoat of buffing compound (it was rusticated, what a mess that would have been!) At any rate, after trying this, it is indeed tempting to give this a go with all of my pipes in the future to prevent the shine from fading. I don't know that I'll do that (I'd probably be blacklisted and never be able to sell for more than $20!) but it sure is tempting. Anyway, I hope this helps you out.

Jeff