Why so little activity here?

[Woodrow]

Greetings everyone! I'm new here and am wondering how come there's so little action happening on this forum? There's lots of great stuff on here and it's just weird to see boards where the last post was over a year ago, maybe two years. I know the pipe world is small, but I would've thought a forum purely made up of crafters would be pretty active. Just wondering...

Anyone in the Los Angeles area?

[Ocelot55]

Having been on here long enough to be considered a veteran (not nearly as long as Sas; that guy's a freaking dinosaur), most of what could possibly be discussed has been discussed. How to get a good polish on stinky Ebonite, what kind of compressor is appropriate to sandblast, or how to tell if your shellac has gone bad has been discussed ad nauseam. Most of us don't use this place to socialize. It's better to think about it as a repository for just about whatever pipe making related question you may have.

My advice is to read, read, and read some more. If you can't find an answer in the previous threads, look again. If you still can't find it, then maybe one of us crusty old salts will tell you if you ask nicely.

The people here are great folks, but unless something really interesting happens you should expect a pretty laconic bunch.

[Woodrow]

Thanks for the reply. I got the impression this forum is like that and that's perfectly fine. There's a ton of awesome information on here and some pretty good personalities. I hope to bring up something beneficial and interesting one day for people to chime in on. Thanks again!

[Massis]

Yep, what Jesse said: pretty much everything's been said, and for everything else everyone's buggered off to facebook, as on most forums pretty much...

[RickB]

Yep - that. Occasionally folks will wander over here from the Facebook page (or the pipe making section of various other forums) if they're really serious about learning how to make good pipes - and it will briefly explode with activity again until said individual gets a feel for what they need to be working on to improve and they go off and do it. As a resource, this place is fantastic - but the folks here are much less inclined to sugarcoat feedback (which in and of itself is useful), but that's not what a lot of people are looking for, really. Most of the drive-by "hey I made a pipe and my mom says it's great so pat me on the head and tell me I'm a good boy and I'll be on my way" folks never make it past FB at this point.

[Bluesytone]

This place is a treasure trove for a patient fella to find most every bit of info he/she needs to make a pipe.

[Sasquatch]

Part of what's cracking (or not) here is that while this used to be basically the only place in the world to talk to other pipemakers on a daily or weekly basis, now there's facebook groups, instagram, other forums with pipe making sections etc. So while pipe making has become LESS of a niche thing, the actual activity on THIS board has gone down, because it's picked up elsewhere. Lots of us check in and answer/help as we can, but the standing rule is also "try it before you come and bug me". I saw a guy on facebook post something like "Can someone please tell me how to make a stem? I would like to fix this pipe tonight." Like... zoinks, Scoob.

Slight changing of the guard here too - Rad, Bruce, TJ, buncha guys like that aren't active here much anymore - they did their time! So it's Sas and Sandahl and Ocelot and Scottie, and yeah, I guess I'm the oldest of that group in terms of pipe making, I'm 11 years in now or something... jesus. With Kurt back maybe the place livens up a bit, I know Tyler has been a bit busy with other stuff and not participating or adminning a ton here in recent years, which is fair, it's not like a guy is getting paid for it!

But again, asking "How do you guys get such a shiny finish?" is not the same (and won't generally be responded to the same) as saying "Here's how I finished this, and I think it could be better, but I'm not sure where to go next". Lots of people are willing to help, but you gotta put the effort in too, is what I found. Or in the words of Bruce Springsteen, "the door is open but the ride ain't free".

[KurtHuhn]

I was talking about this the other day with one of my longtime friends, concerning gunsmithery, but the subject was the same. I'm always happy to help and provide info, but I really like to see folks come armed with having tried something, maybe screwed it up, and ask how to it better, faster, more accurately, whatever. It's interesting and rewarding to respond to queries like that, because you know the person asking has already put in some time and effort, realizes they didn't get it quite right, and wants to improve. Everything prior to that is liable to simply get a canned response - right or wrong...

Which, in no way, is intended to quell the questions.

[Massis]

I see the exact same thing in my line of work: IT / programming.
Try posting a random question on StackOverflow, you won't get any (useable) response unless you can post what you tried, what didn't work and part of your code that isn't doing what you want it to.

The same goes for pipemaking or any other creative passtime I'd say. Show you've put in the effort, and everyone will be a LOT more willing to help you progress.

[RickB]

I do really get a kick out of people posting things on the PMF FB page ("The Facebook home of PipeMakersForum.com.") like "where can I go to learn more about pipe making?"
I have a hard time turning the sarcasm off on that one, but I've been mostly trying to keep myself in line

[KurtHuhn]

I see the exact same thing in my line of work: IT / programming.
Try posting a random question on StackOverflow, you won't get any (useable) response unless you can post what you tried, what didn't work and part of your code that isn't doing what you want it to.

Oh Gawd - I can't even read IT forums or websites anymore. I even stopped following IT groups on social media. I'm convinced that some of that crowd, when they hear hoofbeats, it's always zebras. Something something, kids these days....

[dogcatcher]

Facebook has been the downfall of quite a few forums. People get the news and comments, but fail to realize the knowledge that has been left on the forums, whether it comes from an expert or a novice, the forums keep it organized for the next group of novices. While on Facebook information is lost in a massive vacuum that has little or no benefit to a newcomer.

[Scap]

I'm saddened as I read this thread. I absolutely refuse to use anything on the face pages. As a novice woodworker and even more novice pipe smoker, I use the collective knowledge of forums like a student used to use encyclopedias and libraries.

I really wish the social media thing would implode, but I'll likely be long gone by then.

[sandahlpipe]

The real trouble isn't social media. It's that the average person isn't naturally inclined to learn, and learning is hard. When I started, I spent months reading every single post on the forum. I couldn't do that on Facebook, sure. But Facebook does make it easier to handle the other side of learning, which is critique. The forum here isn't easy for people new to forums to figure out how to post pictures so they all show up, and it may take a day or two to get a response. Facebook allows for quicker feedback.

The real difficulty is that social media tends to reward those who are more active with things like badges and likes, rather than rewarding people based on the actual value of their contribution relative to the task of learning. Critique comes across to a lot of people as aggressive, and people get defensive and don't listen. But then again, there were plenty of people who posted for critique on this forum and got their panties bunched up as well. Learning is hard. This is a great resource if you're willing to put in the work.

[dogcatcher]

Go back through the old threads with the mindset that you are a brand new wannabe pipe carver and you are as ignorant as dirt. Start at the beginning, the oldest thread first and work your way to the newer threads. By the time you have read the first 10 pages of each category, stems, stummels, tooling, finishing and the critiques of the gallery, You will have learned enough to make a decent pipe, you will need more, but the basics are in concrete in this forum. Try doing that on the BS of Facebook, you will learn little of the basics, because there is no organization to the information.

[n80]

As a new member and new hobbyist pipe maker I can tell you guys that this forum is a bit intimidating.

This is not a criticism, just an observation. I'm learning my way around. I'm getting tons of great information reading old threads and via direct responses from helpful regular members. And I keep coming back because I get a sense that I can't get this kind of information and expertise anywhere else. So to me its worth it.

To others it might not be.

George

[LatakiaLover]

Objective reality is definitely intimidating. Especially in an increasingly feelings-based Social Media world.

But gravity doesn't care, straight lines don't care, flat surfaces don't care, failed joints don't care, ebonite tear-outs don't care, and so on.

The Old Guard here has made many thousands of pipes and spent tens of thousands of hours and dollars doing it. Along the way they realized that making them to a high standard was more important than feeling good about doing something poorly, that aspiring carvers who wanted to be lied to already had plenty of platforms that would provide that sort of "feedback" (FB, Instagram, etc), and that keeping this place free of such fluff was a worthy goal in its own right.

And here we are.

[sandahlpipe]

The forum is intimidating. Part of that is we’ve all got personalities, and part of that is our commitment to clear, honest critique. Those who take the critique and apply it will be better off than those receiving a thousand compliments.

Seriously, do read the whole forum. Probably 90% of what I know about pipe making game from reading every post here. The other 10% I’ve learned from screwing up and working in a real pipe maker’s workshop. The critique process and confronting the gauntlet on this forum is something everybody has to go through to get better. You don’t grow without pain. And you don’t learn when you’re in your comfort zone.

But making pipes is something anybody with drive and patience can learn. It’s harder than most beginners give it credit for.


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[n80]

Along the way they realized that making them to a high standard was more important than feeling good about doing something poorly, that aspiring carvers who wanted to be lied to already had plenty of platforms that would provide that sort of "feedback" (FB, Instagram, etc), and that keeping this place free of such fluff was a worthy goal in its own right.

I get that.

But I'm not sure its a fair assessment that every aspiring carver is looking to be petted and lied to.....at least not those of us who are not millenials (I'm 56) . They might just need help specific to their current skill level....which if they are a beginner like me is going to be low, low low.

And as an expert "Old Guard" in other fields where I am called on to provide constructive criticism I also understand that there is a fine line between tearing down an aspiring artist or craftsman and providing helpful honest criticism. It can be difficult but one can be honest and thoughtful and constructive as well. I think brutally honest criticism has its place. But I think criticism that takes into account where someone is in the learning process and what their goals are is likely to be more useful. I understand that that might not be the point of this forum. If it is just a platform for master pipe makers who don't have the time or inclination to 'nurture' someone along there is nothing wrong with that.

But the topic of this thread is why there is so little activity here. And maybe that misses the point too. It could be that the "Old Guard" has no desire for any more activity than there currently is. Nothing wrong with that either.

You don’t grow without pain. And you don’t learn when you’re in your comfort zone.

Agreed. I am a high performance driving instructor on the weekends. I teach 'students' how to drive at high speeds on road racing circuits. The easiest thing in the world would be to give a new student a thorough and objective, honest assessment of his first few laps. It would always be ugly. And it would be discouraging and it would likely be of no actual benefit to the student. Instead I (we instructors) focus on a few big things in order of importance and then work from there. I (we) also approach a student differently depending on his goals. If he wants to get his racing license in 6 months the critique is aimed at attaining that goal and will be harsher. If the student is there to learn to have fun and besafe at track weekends the critique will be different with fun being a priority. No need to beat him up on the finer points of trail braking or finding the limit of traction at every corner.

Having been a first time track day student I also discovered the importance of positive feedback. I was terrible. My instructor was struggling with me. I knew I was bad and I knew he knew it. And then, late in the second day, when I was ready to give up and never come to the track again I did a couple of things marginally well. The instructor made a big deal of it. He didn't go overboard, he didn't lie to make me feel better. He just recognized something done right and acknowledged it. That felt so good. So I came back. And now I'm pretty good at the game and am instructing myself.

Again, just some thoughts. Not intending to lecture anyone. I'm fine with the forum as it is. I have read a lot of it. I don't care if it gets more active or not. I'm not trying to change the forum or criticize the "Old Gaurd" . (The letter to new members pretty much makes it clear not to poke the Old Guard ) The forum has accelerated my learning. LatakiaLover's videos (and replies) have been a big help. No one has hurt my feelings. But the topic of the post was why there isn't much going on here and I was speculating. If there is a desire for more activity then new members is a good way to get that.

But making pipes is something anybody with drive and patience can learn. It’s harder than most beginners give it credit for.

I found making a working pipe to be fairly easy (I'm pretty handy at a lot of other tool/technical oriented pursuits). I'm finding making a really good pipe to be incredibly difficult. Part of that is because I have been reading a lot here and have adopted some of the standards of excellency I have learned about here. (I'm a pretty harsh critic on my own.) I'm not saying I've acquired the ability for excellence, I'm just able to recognize it better. Heck, I was looking at a well known pipe maker's works and spotted issues that I learned about here!

Anyway, I have a long long way to go. Just finished my best pipe so far......and then noticed some flaws that I should have seen before I finished it! But I am really having fun doing this. Way more than I expected and a lot of that is due to this forum.

George

[LatakiaLover]

Along the way they realized that making them to a high standard was more important than feeling good about doing something poorly, that aspiring carvers who wanted to be lied to already had plenty of platforms that would provide that sort of "feedback" (FB, Instagram, etc), and that keeping this place free of such fluff was a worthy goal in its own right.

I get that.

But I'm not sure its a fair assessment that every aspiring carver is looking to be petted and lied to.....

Historically speaking, enough of them have to create an "assumed to be the case until something more than words is offered" dynamic, though.

As for that being fair or not, you'll have to take it up with human nature. The "once burned twice shy" / "fool me twice, shame on me" reaction is a strong one.