Pipe number 6

[TRS]

Another stab at a billiard. Comments, critique, pointers; all are welcome. Thanks gents!

[Sasquatch]

Shaping looks pretty good overall, but I'd say it's still a little chubby, more of a brandy than a billiard proper - there's still a billiard in there, and a little stock removal would find it.

[TRS]

Too fat on the back still? I was trying to make it match the profile of the front curve.....so I'm guessing that's too fat as well. I hate to be the beggar, but a Sasquatch 'Paint'-job with the lines would deeply honor me!

[Sasquatch]

I'd say take it in a direction like this -



I have canted the top just a hair more forward, and "squared up" the bowl and thinned the shank a touch.

Whether you thin the shank a bit depends totally on the final bowl dimension - if you have a 3/16" thick bowl around a 3/4" chamber, a thick shank is gonna be disproportionate.

Check out this Dunny:

http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/d ... t_id=61645

And don't feel alone in this battle. I did probably 10 "Oh yeah this will be a billiard" pipes before I finally did one I was happy with (and I don't consider at all that I've mastered it - shit, I sometimes get a billiard when I'm trying for a bulldog). The key is taking off enough material. It's easier to make big fat Italian pipes than little thin English ones.



But don't show that one to anyone else.

[TRS]

Awesome, thanks. Yeah, I just wanna make sure I can turn out a few good classic shapes before I start screwing around with the artsier pipe shapes.... Now to take all that hard sanding work all the way back!

[staffwalker]

I have no problem with the 'fatness'. Sure you could cut it down a bit but still, I have seen many 'so called' billiards which were just as fat. If you do cut it down try to keep the same curve or slightly less from top of bowl to bottom. I would, however, start the stem taper closer to the junction to make it somewhat skinner and spend some more time cleaning up the button, it's still a little shabby, lots of tool marks, rather amateurish in overall appearance. bob gilbert

[TRS]

Thanks for the input Bob. Are you talking about the slot? That's an area I have trouble with that I'm trying to improve with each pipe. Even my smallest tools have a hard time getting in there. In the photo the outside of the button looks dull and marked-up, but it's just shoddy focus and surface debris....

[prosmoking]

Don't get into the "Standard Shape" argument. No matter which description you go by the critic will use the other.
You can go by what Sasquatch says if you like. The pipe of mine he criticized has five buyers waiting for me to sell it. The one made to Sasquatch recommendations generated no interest from the buyers. Make what you like. Make what you and other pipe smokers you know would buy. I don't care who is right, I care about quality and what generates sales. I would buy the shape you have and not give the straight Sasquatch version a second glance.

Sasquatch is using the straight billiard definition.
Fujipub describes billiard as follows: A bowl which is two-thirds of a tall elipse; possibly the most common bowl shape, the name probably comes from the French word for "log."
Maxim Engle says: In its classic dimensions the height of the bowl and the length of the shank are the same or directly proportional 2:3. Max continues: The billiard is probably the most popular shape in any brand. It comes in an almost infinite variety of sizes. The short 5 3/4” billiard, the normal 6” x 2”, the stack billiard, the oversize ODA, the ELX size and the Magnum. It is hard to name another shape that scales so well. There are military mount billiards, paneled billiards, diamond shanked billiards, triangular shanked billiards, square shanked, bamboo shanked ones, with long and normal length shanks, LB billiard’s chubby billiards, flat bottom sitting billiards, rounded from bottom billiards, (Bo Nord), the slightly canted billiard, the lightly curved stem billiard and these are the ones that readily come to mind. The Canadian can almost be considered a billiard with a long oval shank or a Lovat a billiard with a round slightly longer than normal shank

Well ???? Is it a billiard because it is straight sided? An ellipse?, The ratio of bowl to shank?

I like the wine glass shape variation you came up with. While it does look like the back is a bit off from the front, there is also an optical illusion generated by the shank. Other than what may be an illusion, the rest looks very symmetrical. I also looks like you have some decent brier to play with. Pick and choose from the criticisms based on what the pipe smokers around you like when you show off your creations. Best wishes

[TRS]

Thanks pro, I appreciate the comments. I also like more rounded, 'pottery' shaped bowls. After my first pipe I decided that I'd like to get a classical billiard shape down pretty well; the process of doing this has given me a lot of good experience learning with my tools as well as trying to work within a (somewhat) defined set of parameters. I've communicated this and Sasquatch and Kurt have been sorta guiding me along with each attempt I post. I'm sure somewhere down the road I'll come up with my 'own' billiard, but for now they're just giving me the schooling I was looking for. You can bet that my billiards will probably be on the bigger end though. This one came from a big block and I like it.

[pennsyscot]

I dig the chubby look. I agree that the stem taper should begin at the stem-shank juction and the button should be thinner. Nice pipe.

[T3pipes]

for me, making a billiard with the largest circumference at the mid point up the bowl is the most difficult. Keeping the bulge from drifting up or down, and if it does drift making sure it drifts equally all the way around, is the key to learning to craft all the possible variations on the basic shape. So for learning, I would say that is the way to go.

This pipe looks nice. proportions of all the parts look to fit well together.

the follow observation may be optical illusion--on the front shot, the left side near the bottom looks a bit fatter. it looks like the shank meets the stummel just a bit off center, causing the apex of the arch along the bottom to be a bit to the right

[KurtHuhn]

My opinion (such as it is) is that a billiard should not have the widest point at the middle of the height of the bowl, but further down - closer to the top of the shank. A billiard that has the widest point at the middle of the height should be called a "barrel".

[Sasquatch]

Prosmoking, where did I criticize a pipe of yours? EDIT: Ah, this here... http://www.smokersforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=82015

You obviously have an axe to grind. Grind it on someone else's time please. Beatus asked if he had a classic billiard. The answer is "no". He didn't ask if he had a nice pipe, or a saleable pipe, or a pipe that I liked. As his friend, it would be a disservice to him to tell him that he had nailed the classic billiard. If I treat him or Stummel Bum or any number of other guys here a bit casually, it's because I've exchanged ideas with them many times.



There's a major difference between criticizing something and disliking something, and we all (okay, most) understand that. If there are indeed no relatively objective standards of shape, then why show off a pipe at all? Merely to see how well done the stem/shank junction is done?

Excellent Volcano, Beatus.

[m.c.]

... shit, I sometimes get a billiard when I'm trying for a bulldog). ...

In case that happens again, you may cut in another dozen rings and pass it off as a heat dissipation and super-breathing design.

[Sasquatch]

I'll stamp it "Porsche Design" and sell it for 500 bucks.

[prosmoking]

Prosmoking, where did I criticize a pipe of yours? EDIT: Ah, this here... http://www.smokersforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=82015

You obviously have an axe to grind.

No, I have no axe to grind. Please accept my apology. I did not sell either of my pipes. I presented them and asked my friends which type of pipe they would be interested in buying. They all picked the first pipe by style. Yes the second pipe does have a large flaw in the brier. I smoke it anyway. And it is a pipe I really enjoy. I believe your advise helped my pipe making more than you will ever know. For the record. I like my Sasquatch redesigned pipe the best. It is my favorite of the two. I am working on two more that better fit your redesign of the pipe because I like it best. But, I am also making two of the first design with smaller bowl ID for a customer because that is what he wants.

Please, lets clear the air here where my comment originated. You are correct in your analysis of this pipe being presented as a billiard, not meeting one of the standard definitions. Your comments on my pipes presented are in line with what I want in a pipe. What I can't figure out is why you and I both prefer my second attempt (Sasquatch pipe), and I have an order for the other. This may be the start of a good relationship if we can clear the air.

[stummel bum]

I love the shape of this one. I would consider this more of a brandy, but there's nothing wrong with that. Still a great shape and very marketable.

[prosmoking]

By one definition. A billiard is 2/3 of a tall ellipse.
Draw a tall ellipse. Mark it in thirds.
Now, mark each third in half so that it is marked at 1/6ths overall.
Make an X by the half way mark where the bulge is at 3/6 division.
Now, cover the top 2/6 with your finger leaving the bottom 2/3 exposed.
Now you have the pipe bowl showing, divided in 4 equal quarters.
The marked middle of the budge is at the ¾ mark. Simple, right?
The apex of the bulge on a billiard should be 3/4 up or 1/4 down, by definition.

[Sasquatch]

Pro, consider the air cleared.

The analysis of "what makes a pipe pretty" is really, really detailed and difficult. Arguments about golden ratios and curve echoing and all kinds of shit come into play. Then you have to add on top of it a really high level of technical perfection, and hey, presto, it's REALLY hard to make a good looking pipe, and by that, I mean a pipe that will sell for more than the materials cost!

These guys that bother for some reason to help us - Kurt, Rad, Bruce and Todd, (and 20 others when they have the time), understand what makes for a good pipe, they have an ability to move things in a direction that sells to discriminating buyers, and all we can do is learn from them and try to understand what they know.



FWIW I don't own a single straight billiard.